Warrior Rework Idea

[Kalise]

Stun helps alot when multipulling, Monsters like the big crab in Shisui is a good example "when it casts Flush" also the monster just before the final boss in Sirensong "when it casts Seductive Scream" and theres probably many more monsters like this where stun is a good idea to use. People are just too lazy to notice the monsters abilities and what they do. Stun is also used in pvp to keep a healer from casting spells for example.

But... My change of Interject would stop that crab casting Flush. It'd also stop that miniboss casting Seductive Scream. Only, it'd be guaranteed that it'd work, because the crab wouldn't become immune to stun when the WHM in the party spams Holy (When you pull that crab alongside the next group of octopus and shark thing?) and that miniboss wouldn't end up becoming immune if you had a DRG/MNK in the party using their stun skills for DPS.

Similar thing would happen in PvP, where you could interrupt the healer casting spells (Also, due to the CD change I made, you could do it more frequently. If albeit, for shorter duration)

Again, why is STUN specifically necessary for these scenarios?

Just whining about how people are too stupid to interrupt these mechanics, when I'm literally making a change to improve the ability for the people who actually do notice these mechanics to interrupt them, does not influence my mind as to why removal of a stun is a "Bad idea"

Since, I am one of those people that does use the current Stun and Silence skills to deal with various skills, especially during mass pulls. Things like the big serpents at the start of Shisui that do the large AoE attack, I stun them out of it so I don't have to reposition enemies outside of persistent AoE's like Salted Earth/Shadow Flare.

The thing is, any form of interrupt would work against these skills. It's not a case of these skills being unaffected by anything but exclusively stuns. It's just a matter of, Silence doesn't work as they're not spells and there exists no other tool in Tanks kits other than Stun to prevent abilities. But I'm literally suggesting the implementation of a new tool to Tanks kits that will do the same thing, without needing to use 2 buttons in order to have access to an interrupt for Abilities and Spells.

[Tint]

But how necessary is a stun specifically?

Especially when I've made Interject work against all interruptible skills (Be they ability or spells).

Stun stops an enemy for 5 seconds from attacking you at all.

Well, it's not that necessary, but it becomes handy for example in Eureka when you fight against mutatet monsters 5 levels above you with the wrong element in defense...
Leviathan Ex, the add wich casts fear. Stun it right when it spawns and you have 5 seconds more to burst it down.
Stun the last boss in Qarn Hm when a party member is tethered, so the boss can't run after him and he doesn't turn into a mummy.

A stun is not only an interruption, but also a mitigation tool.

[Cabalabob]

Why do all these job rework threads start with “remove all the role actions and give each job their own version!”. That’s kinda the point of the role actions, so they don’t have to keep making new animations for the same basic tools for every job...

[Kalise]

Why do all these job rework threads start with “remove all the role actions and give each job their own version!”. That’s kinda the point of the role actions, so they don’t have to keep making new animations for the same basic tools for every job...

Probably because role actions are boring at best and superfluous at worst.

Like, many role actions are literally useless (Break, Drain, Goad, Surecast, Foot Graze, Leg Graze, Arm Graze), or incredibly niche (Convalescence, Awareness, Arm's Length, Crutch, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Mana Shift, Apocatastasis, Palisade, Erase, Feint, Addle).

With some actions seemingly only existing to create ability bloat (Protect, Peloton, Cleric Stance - Literally all 3 could just be passive effects)

There are very few Role Actions that are actually meaningful. Thus, with such few meaningful Role Actions, why not make new animations for the same basic tools? Or fit them in with the already existing Job actions that are completely useless anyway?

[Kurando]

Like, many role actions are literally useless (Break, Drain, Goad, Surecast, Foot Graze, Leg Graze, Arm Graze), or incredibly niche (Convalescence, Awareness, Arm's Length, Crutch, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Mana Shift, Apocatastasis, Palisade, Erase, Feint, Addle).

I wouldn't throw Surecast in to the useless section, a good caster knows when to utilize this and can help to pass many mechs, even in Extreme/Savage content. Many casters get more damage uptime knowing when to use this, so far from useless, even before SB it was a very good action to take as cross role. The other actions mentioned are useless though depending on the content. Although the niche ones are not all niche, but mostly wanted to clear up Surecast.

[Kalise]

I wouldn't throw Surecast in to the useless section, a good caster knows when to utilize this and can help to pass many mechs, even in Extreme/Savage content. Many casters get more damage uptime knowing when to use this, so far from useless, even before SB it was a very good action to take as cross role. The other actions mentioned are useless though depending on the content. Although the niche ones are not all niche, but mostly wanted to clear up Surecast.

That's probably on me. As I've never mained caster, I've never really noted any mechanics that were especially punishing for getting casts off so that Surecast was necessary.

Even in solo content, where I'm literally getting pounded in the face by enemies several levels higher than me, I've never really felt the need to use Surecast to prevent interruptions (They were annoying, sure, but nothing that made me want to bother putting SC onto my action bar)

So to expand slightly further:

(assuming all TP costs are removed so base combos are free)

* BB/Eye both return MP.
* All 4 GCD gauge skills cost identical MP (FC/IB/SC/Decimate)
* Using Deliverance MP skills build deliverance gauge. Using Defiance MP skills builds Defiance gauge. Can maintain Parry/Crit passives
* When both defiance and Deliverance gauge bars are full (X uses of each) unlocks Inner release. (Probably 2 or 3 each total as any more than 4-6 starts to take to long for this game, but can vary based on how strictly MP costs gate accessability)
* Inner release is some type of bursty damage buff that is greater than the difference of (FC pot-IB Pot)*X.

My issue with this is what becomes of combos?

Like, WAR has 3 combos (Butcher, Path, Eye). Currently only 2 are worthwhile.

With this suggestion, again, only 2 become worthwhile (Butcher and Eye) for MP gain (Much the same as why DRK has only 1 combo and PLD only has 2 combos that are worthwhile because MP gain... Also, damage because, inexplicably the MP regain combos also have higher potency for them)

If the basis is still built on my original ideas for BB to generate Defiance while Path/Eye generate Deliverance. Then it comes back to a thing where people would only use BB combos to generate Defiance, they would never use IB and would instead spend MP on FC, even overcapping on Deliverance because then you're using 10% bonus crit chance FC's instead of using 33% less damaging IB's (Unless potencies were altered)

This is the underlying problem with shared resource costs, players will never want to spend their resources using the lesser damaging skill.

Be it IB vs FC using the same Gauge (Currently)

Be it IB vs FC using MP (Your suggestion)

Be it Storm's Path vs Butcher/Eye (Currently)

Be it Butcher/Eye vs Path (Your suggestion)

The latter 2 being competing for the resource of GCD's.

This is to say nothing about your suggestion doesn't do anything differently about making actively mitigating anything meaningful. You use IB to generate gauge. It doesn't matter when you use IB, it doesn't matter what secondary effect is on IB (Max HP, Damage Reduction, forced Parry etc) you have no reason to "Save" it for when damage is coming in and it's merely a passive reduction in damage if it happens to line up when you cast IB for the resources it generates.

Since this is one of the issues with WAR's design and theme. Very little exists in a way that makes active mitigation convert into something useful. The closest we have is Max HP synergy a la Upheaval's potency increase, but that doesn't actually care if we mitigate with that max HP (In fact, due to Upheaval caring about CURRENT HP it's actually better that we don't mitigate with that HP). Maybe we can also include Vengeance's retaliation damage - But again, this would come under just passively taking damage during the effect.

Some people have previously tried to think of an oGCD Inner Beast skill. But unless the skill is reworked to no longer deal damage... It would simply become an oGCD you used when beneficial (If costing gauge it would just be weaved in during IR. If free it would just be used on CD)

Even if you take WAR's current designs and themes out of the equation and look to its sources and inspiration, such as Berserkers, Vikings and Warriors from previous titles, there still isn't much there to use. For example, a stereotypical Berserker thing is to do increased damage while at lower HP values... But then it's just a case of actively not mitigating damage to lower your HP value for bonus damage.

Maybe there's some form of Counterattack (See: X-2 Berserker with Counterattack, Magick Counter and Evade & Counter, Tactics A2 Berserker with Counter and XI Warrior with Retaliation) that could work. But the issue is trying to turn it into something that cares about mitigating damage.

Especially notable is something that makes use of requiring significant damage to be mitigated like with TBN where you have to break that shield to get the bonus (Compared to Sheltron which you can block an AA that you don't care about and get the same DPS increase to if you used the block vs a Tankbuster)

Honestly i dont really care what the reward is, as long as it is greater than the cost of using IB over FC for a few uses so that it is actually worth using.

Yeah... The trick is trying to make combo's rewarding to use each of them as well as making IB then also worth using over FC.

Both have their inevitable pitfalls.

It's really hard to make these skills balanced when they cost the same resources... Unless you do something like with DRG's FaC/WT where using one lets you then use the other with bonus potency (So for example, FC then lets you use an IB with bonus potency) - The issue in this case is if IB is still the "Defensive" skill and provides a defensive bonus, then it's still just going to be passive free mitigation while you just IB after your FC for damage while the defence is free.

Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?

I think that all classes need a rework to their level 1-50 skill unlocks.

As far as the class as a whole goes... Something should happen to address the the essentially non-existence of Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone at end-game where Defensive Stances are rarely used.

To say nothing about my personal bias (With some other players more objective bias) in regards to Inner Release. My qualm being that it's not fun or interesting. While other's complain about how it works so well with buff stacking meta's because it condenses so much of WAR's overall DPS into a specific 10s burst window that happens to be ideal for buff stacking metas.

[Kurando]

That's probably on me. As I've never mained caster, I've never really noted any mechanics that were especially punishing for getting casts off so that Surecast was necessary.

Even in solo content, where I'm literally getting pounded in the face by enemies several levels higher than me, I've never really felt the need to use Surecast to prevent interruptions (They were annoying, sure, but nothing that made me want to bother putting SC onto my action bar)

Yeah solo play probably isn't best thing to measure a role actions usefulness, as things like Break, Leg Graze etc (those CC type actions) generally work to full effect unlike in most duties where they usually tend to be ineffective.

It's not much Surecast is necessary, but it's a major convenience to use it. Most recent example I can think of is Suzaku Extreme, the boss does Refrain and Mesmerising to knock back or pull in the party, Surecast and Arm's Length (and other anti-CCs) negate the effect meaning the caster can just focus on damage and/or heals rather than having to reposition themselves somewhere safe. It's generally quicker to use/weave in Surecast than actually move, plus the cooldown is lower than the melee version so casters have quite a bit of flexibility with it. I'd say just experiment a little more with it as a caster (in duties), it's a nice little thing to utilize if you can so definitely recommend it.

[MagiusNecros]

Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?

[Izsha]

Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?

I would say yes, but not really for war's sake, but for tanks as a role. War is the cause of some odd problems centered around IB and Holmgang that makes it hard for all tanks to ever be equal defensively because IB is designed to function as the 'always available' defensive option to pair with other items and manage fluff. Pld does this with shelltron to pair with CDs for tank busters and a shield in general for fluff mitigation. Drk does this with TBN. War does this with.....a lower CD on HG to free up CDs to both stack on the remaining busters and as fluff mitigation and an extra CD over the other tanks.

This puts war in 2 states. Deliverance tanking where the extra immunity use in a fight and extra CD makes up for the lack of a 'spammable' mitigation tool. But also means warrior in defiance is utterly beastly on defense as they now have that 'spammable' mitigation tool on top of low immunity timer and extra CD. If you remove the extra stuff (HG timer and extra CD) then defiance warrior is on par with tank stance Drk/Pld but utter crap outside by comparison in DPS stance. Or you have what we have now wich is more balance in DPS stance but OP in defiance. It gets more confusing when you add in easier tank stance for war and some ways to mitigate the tank stance penalty. It ends up being significantly better in some situations if you can leverage those things properly.

As long as warrior has 'spammable' defense locked up in defiance and pld/drk dont, we are stuck in this situation where warrior has 2 states of defense that somehow both need to be equal to pld/drk and thats just not possible.

Then theres the IR thing, which is more of a preference. I hate it the 1 button wonder skill and really enjoyed managing resources for the old zerk windows, but some people seem to like it. But any time a job is changed that happens. I'd like to see it changed, but this one is purely individual preference.
________________________________________

My issue with this is what becomes of combos?

Like, WAR has 3 combos (Butcher, Path, Eye). Currently only 2 are worthwhile.

With this suggestion, again, only 2 become worthwhile (Butcher and Eye) for MP gain (Much the same as why DRK has only 1 combo and PLD only has 2 combos that are worthwhile because MP gain... Also, damage because, inexplicably the MP regain combos also have higher potency for them)

(etc more comments)

I must not be explaining it properly. In my example, you would never just spam FC ad nausium over IB because you NEED to use IB to unlock your most powerful action.

Going from 3 to 2 combos isnt the end of the world to me. We already just use 2 combos. So might as well make it official. This still uses your framework where enmity combos are replaced with unchained, so instead of finding a use for the 'enmity combo' we just nix it. In this example, the combos are very similar to today and gain resource for FC/IB (MP). I'm assuming a similar setup to now with a maintenance buff like eye, and a second combo to use when not refreshing eye with slightly higher potency: ie butchers. New combos are eye for buff maintenance and MP. Butchers for potency when eye is up, also with MP (basically replace current gauge with MP)

So the gameplay is basic combo rotation similar to now that gives you resource to use IB/FC/SC/Dec just like now. The change being that resource is MP, not gauge. Using the MP costing skills (current gauge GCD skills) will reward you with your two gauge resources. IB/SC reward you with say, 1/3 defiance gauge. FC/Dec reward you with 1/3 deliverance gauge. After 3 uses of each capping out both gauges you can spend BOTH gauges to access a powerful action/buff. That action/Buff increases damage by more than 600 potency (asssuming same IB/FC potencies as now). So you WANT to use IB over FC 50% of the time. You would never just spam FC forever because that would be suboptimal damage as it would delay the use of your powerful dual gauge expenditure. (all numbers subject to change, but thats the framework)

This system would do 2 things that are the main goals I have:
* encourage balanced use of both IB and FC instead of 'one or the other' that plagues us now.
* Gives you flexibility on WHEN to use IB so you can use it defensively. Pld/Drk skirt this in different ways. Pld doesnt REQUIRE shelltron to proc shield swipe as it can happen via bullwark and passive procs so you can 'save' it for when you need it without heavy punishement. Drk does this by having TBN be functionally DPS neutral out of grit so theres no penalty to saving it when needed. This quick sketch napkin idea does it by requiring IBs in equal number to FCs, but no restriction on when. 3 IBs>3FCs? great. 1IB>2FCs>2IBs>1FC? Great. Pretty flexible to adapt to the fight. You also have a pool of MP that you can stack up to add additinal timing flexibility. In the same way you 'could' spam shelltron on CD, you can also save it for a while with the gauge bar, or be a scrub and spam it asap. At least you are mitigating something, but proper use still involves planning, which is a good thing.

The conundrum now is there is never a reason to use IB over FC because of all the damage penalties. This gives reason to use IB, but doesnt 180 the problem where you now ignore FC and only spamming IB. You HAVE to use IBs intermittently, so a good player will use that by optimizing IB timing in a fight.

Along with this, HG can get the properly longer timer and war wont need extra CDs over drk/pld as they now can access frequent mitigation. Tweak DPS numbers as neccessary so DPS is equal.