The Ascian Question: Have the Ascians ever lied?

[Smiegle2]

Title basically says it all but I'll elaborate, Spoiler alerts for a lot of stuff especially the latest Shadowbringers info and trailer.


If you watched the launch trailer or have walked around the forums a bit you probably know that Solus zos Galvus, who is one of the big 3 Ascians, flat out said that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are the Eldest of Primals, a statement which has spawned a lot of debate. We're not really gonna find a satisfactory answer right now but I got a question/challenge for everyone that might settle some of it.

My question is, Have the Ascians ever flat out lied to us? Lies of omission do not count nor does false information they legitimately believe. With that criteria, I can't think of a single time where they lied to us but I want to see if someone else has something. If they haven't then that logically means that Solus is telling the truth as he knows it, though he could be mistaken, and if they have then he's probably just messing with us.

Edit: YianKutku pointed out that excluding lies of omission was a bit of a problem and I happen to agree so I'll explain my reasoning here. The point here to is to see if, based on past evidence regarding the Ascians, Solus might be lying about Hydaelyn being a primal and I can't think of anything he could omit from that statement that would fundamentally change its meaning which is why lies of omission are excluded.
Btw, I appreciate you pointing that out YianKutku; I often make the mistake of thinking my line of reasoning is obvious to everyone despite the fact I sometimes can't follow it.

[RenewalXVII]

I can't think of any big lies to us personally off the top of my head, but Solus's role in the Empire is a massive deception--most notably, the raison d'etre for the Empire's war against the "savages" is predicated on the lie that primals created the Burn. Deception is a tool the Ascians are fully prepared to use, so we'll need more context to evaluate his words beyond his apparent honesty.

[Crushnight]

The ascians no i don't believe they have outright lied just never revealed the whole truth

Solus on the other hand yes he has, the empires founding was a lie, who he was was a lie even to his 'family', the reason to go on a crusade against savages because of the primals they could summon created the Burn a lie, reason for stopping campaign to Eorzea a lie, i'm also willing to bet the whole Baj Citadel was collaboration between him and Lahabrea as well as giving the Darnus family the right information.

So if anything Solus is probably the last ascian we should ever believe if such information came from Elidibus hell even Lahabrea or Nabriales/Igorymn then i would believe it more but atm i have a truck load of salt ready for this 'truth'

[Bright-Flower]

I don't know if Lahabrea 'lied' to Gaius but her CERTAINLY deceived him via withholding information in ARR. Gaius was not exactly happy when Lahabrea started making the Ultima Weapon cast...well, Ultima.

[Guiballad]

Ok so here's the thing. I believe an Ascian never lies... on screen and when talking with us.

Solus had to lie and lie a lot to set up the Garlean Empire i assume. Ascians lie to the beast tribes telling them that they can summon their gods and then teach them primal summoning. Elidibus is a walking lie right now because Zenos is dead (or he should be).

But for some reason these lies are never directed at us. Whenever an Ascian is with us they always seem to spill the beans somewhat. It's mostly half-truths and bait but they all seem true on some level.

That's my take anyway.

[Iscah]

Ascians lie to the beast tribes telling them that they can summon their gods and then teach them primal summoning.

I doubt they directly lie to the beast tribes any more than they directly lie to us.

It's absolutely true that with enough crystals, the tribe can call upon their god and have them manifest in corporeal form.

The Ascians might have failed to mention the soul-destroying effects of primal influence, the destructive effect on the land and the fact that this mainly furthers their own goals rather than that of the tribe... but they never actually lied.

[Gula]

Ok so here's the thing. I believe an Ascian never lies... on screen and when talking with us.

Solus had to lie and lie a lot to set up the Garlean Empire i assume. Ascians lie to the beast tribes telling them that they can summon their gods and then teach them primal summoning. Elidibus is a walking lie right now because Zenos is dead (or he should be).

But for some reason these lies are never directed at us. Whenever an Ascian is with us they always seem to spill the beans somewhat. It's mostly half-truths and bait but they all seem true on some level.

That's my take anyway.

I chalk that up to writing and story telling. In a book, a writer shouldn't say "Supposedly Suzy went to the store. Maybe she stayed in bed." For us, the player and WoL, w'ere the exception to all things. And if we were being lied to, there would be a cutscene immediately before or after the fact.

[YianKutku]

Lies of omission do not count

That's kind of a huge shift, though. Lies of omission are still lies, especially if they leave out important information that is core to the entire context, and then deliberately withhold correction when others get the wrong impression. It's kind of like asking if Obi-Wan Kenobi lied to Luke Skywalker when he said that Darth Vader killed Luke's father.

For example, Elidibus is walking around in Zenos's body right now. Does that count as a lie to, say, Asahi, who fully assumed that he was the real Zenos? Elidibus never said he was Zenos, but he never corrected anyone who assumed that he was, and it is a very safe assumption to make given that it's Zenos's body and appearance.

[Anonymoose]

The way you phrase your question defeats the purpose of asking it, in my humble opinion.

Solus says that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are the gods after a fashion, the eldest of primals in terms we can understand.

What fashion? How much fashioning? How close or distant of a parallel? There's infinite room for massaging the facts and context in those caveats. How can we ever say he was lying by that definition, then? What are they before a fashion is what nobody seems to be asking, for some reason. What's the truth in accurate terms? I've said this in other threads, but it's possible for the world to be a result of aether+prayer and still a world we can't change. What if the Lifestream itself is part of the primal-like nature of Hydaelyn's existence?

It's primarily Elidibus whose words tend to be true - the words he says outloud with his mouth. But he only tells you the things you need to hear to do the things he wants you to do. If there's a reason why it's in your worst interest to do so, he's going to leave that part out. There's, again, in my humble opinion, zero reason to doubt that after the Warriors of Darkness arc.

Not to mention Unukalhai. Remember the kid talking about how the Garlean Empire's mission was a contradiction that itself inspired primal summoning and that time he accused Regula of "Garleans never learning" and showing less wisdom regarding primals than the beast tribes who summoned them? The Garlean Empire's mission was entirely Solus's doing, and Solus tells Varis to just shut up and do everything Elidibus says because he's never wrong. Everything Elidibus told Unukalhai turned out to be true. He just didn't happen to tell him much of anything of value.

Or, in the words of the Twelfth Scepter,

Those who will not dance upon our palm shall be crushed within our fist...

[Rocl]

Yet know that if I should perish, so too will the mortal within whose flesh I reside.

He really seemed to say casting him out of Thancred would kill our ally; but again I guess, we didn't technically "kill" Lahabrea then—but he also shouldn't have been expecting us to have the power to do so?

Solus specifically spread information that the Burn was caused by the summoning of Primals. We learn it was actually caused by the Allagan Empire cutting off the aetheric flow.

You can wriggle and squirm your way in to making these potentially true—but there's no way these lines weren't intended to deceive. I also fundamentally disagree with the idea you can call their instruction on the rites of summoning as 'technically true.' They hammer home the point time and time again that while their be a mote of the Allagan general in Garuda, she was never a god to begin with, and she isn't one now. Ysale summons the slimmest amount of aether unto herself and it doesn't make her Shiva.