Thread: 5.0 leaks (that I don't believe)

Reasons why these things are complete baloney:

1) Without Tank Stances, how do they think Warrior's Fell Cleave/Inner Beast and Decimate/Steel Cyclone divide will work?

2) Only VIT affecting DPS... Did the beginning of SB not clue in that things like this won't stand?

3) Why separate SCH from ARC? Especially at this point, where it would be literally creating the job from scratch because no Bio, no Miasma (Thus no Miasma II), new job gauges (Since Fairy power is built from using Aetherflow)... It's something I could see for SMN maybe, if they decided to make them more Summon focused and gave them Rods instead of Books for weapons. But even that is unlikely.

4) Without overmelds... They will have to remove the achievement associated with it. Also, basically just delete Materia at that point because at that point meldable gear becomes trash...

5) What "Relative secondary stat" would these main stats turn into?

6) Reducing Healers damage output to an oGCD skill to weave between heals... Right... Because they didn't specifically implement skills for Healers so that they can solo level and do their job quests

7) Could possibly happen. But I doubt it if Slashing and Blunt debuffs are remaining in the game.

8) So... Nerf Eureka? Wut?

9) Lolno. They literally have Requiescat that requires them to spam MP skills while its active. Would be dumb to then limit PLD's to then just casting Clemency + Holy Spirit. This is to say nothing about how it further gimps low level PLD's by giving their AoE enmity skill a CD, unlike WAR and DRK.

10) Possibly could happen. Not sure how much MNK's dislike it I don't really see many MNK's at all >.>

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

No Tank Stances is the biggest tip off for sure, but I could see it if cooldowns like Inner Release/Unchained opened up the use of some skills temporarily. It only affects WAR majorly.

It also affects DRK somewhat, given their Blood Weapon/Blood Price lockouts.

In addition to their Syphon Strike MP gain.

Then the fact that... They don't actually have a DPS stance, meaning removal of Tank stance means that they'd be always in DPS+Tank "Stance"?

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

VIT affecting tank DPS is also fine if they make Direct Hit only affect DPS classes unless it's from a buff.

Well... There's a lot of issues that can arise from this - Just like last time they made VIT affect Tank DPS.

VIT contributing to Tanks damage, is in of itself not horrible. The issue comes down to balancing it against other stats.

The fact that the greentext states "Only VIT affecting DPS output" suggests that STR, CRIT, DH, DET, SkS and TEN all being worthless stats.

If it meant that VIT is the only primary stat that affects DPS output... So all Fending gear is just going to be VIT + secondary stats... What's going to happen to itemization, given that all gear has VIT plus another primary stat? Will Tanks simply have one less stat on their gear? Will Tanks get an extra secondary stat on gear?

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

SCH seems like the more likely candidate for the rework to me tbh. Arcanist is a DPS by default. Only have to remove or rework Physick/Sustain and then you can move on. Scholar could easily see major changes if SE actually attempts to follow through on their healer rework. Instead of relying on Aetherflow, the Fey Gauge is charged by the fairies themselves and former aetherflow and pet abilities now all work off of it. The biggest red flag I see is what you've noted already.

Ehh... SMN isn't really tied to anything from ARC.

Meaning that it would be much easier to simply turn ARC into a Healer and divorce SMN from it, as opposed to completely reworking SCH in its entirety.

All ARC needs to become a Healer is shift into Piety/Mind stats, healer Role Actions and an AoE heal at level 10. Change Carby's into pets that heal simulating Faries and it's done.

Then you just make SMN only have Egi's/Demi's and alter Ruin/Bio/Miasma and job gauge into something that actually makes any kind of sense for the job. (I.e. Make the job gauge focused around summoning not Trances. Maybe make their skills function sort of like mini-MCH Turrets where for example, their AoE skill is summoning an entity who then tosses out spells. A "DoT" where they summon another entity who continuously attacks a target etc)

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

WoW implemented a similar system in their raiding content, and it was to make the content more difficult to clear without learning the mechanics. Note the use of per fight though. Out of combat raises are fine. Raiding content is the only thing affected other than Absolute Virtue.

I'm aware that WoW implemented raise caps. I also have previously mentioned I think that FFXIV should probably do something similar.

The issue is more with the way its suggested to be implemented. Basically hard capping people at 3 deaths each... Which seems awkward, since it means that you can get up to 16 raises per fight still (2 per player) which is still a silly amount, with it only really punishing that one person who happened to get oneshot by mechanics a couple of times.

To say nothing about how it also gimps Healer LB3, because we all know that we needed to tune down how useful Healer LB3 was

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

The only notable change to DRK would be needing Blood Price to lock out Blood Weapon and vice versa, if they even want to go that route. It's already better to stagger them as it is.
Anything that relied on emnity from tank stances can gain higher emnity modifiers to compensate and anything that specifically was meant for DPS stance is likely what would be adjusted anyways, given what the meta is. And enough effects depended on Dark Arts that as long as those bonuses stayed it wouldn't matter if Grit was available or not.

Everything else inherits the better secondary effects they got from whatever stance the tank was in otherwise.

The issue with just slapping both effects onto DRK, while other Tanks remain having "DPS Stance" and no-stance (Which is the new "Tank Stance") is that you now give DRK's everything all at once.

That's why it's a bigger issue for DRK than it is for other Tanks, because currently, DRK's "DPS Stance" IS no stance.

The change only mentions removal of TANK Stance not stances as a whole, presumably with the intention to make "Tank Stance" simply not have the -15-20% damage modifier and to buff pre-level 30 Tanks whom have gimpy enmity output.

Thus, giving DRK all the benefits of their "Tank Stance" in addition to all the benefits of their "DPS" stance, at the same time, would be a massive upset in balance.

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I haven't forgotten the mess that was the split str/vit weighting that actually made secondaries way too good on them in comparison. I'd expect them to simply delete STR entirely from any gear exclusive to the tanks instead. There's some DRG + Tank gear in ARR that wouldn't get touched but that's not a big deal.

Then we get another meta where Tanks get BiS for the expansion via crafting gear overmelded for STR...

Unless they do in fact remove primary stat Materia and remove overmelding (Which would make Crafted gear terrible... Even for Crafters... Their BiS stuff will be the Yellow Scrip garbage...)

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

An alternative that comes to mind though is just using Tenacity instead of Strength. As in elevate Tenacity to a primary stat specifically for tanks and keep the or improve the defensive bonus in addition to adjusting the damage to that of a primary stat. Then replace Tenacity with either direct hit or a new secondary stat that does something tanks want thanks to other balance changes.

What do you mean "Replace Tenacity with Direct Hit"?

We already have Direct Hit. 2/3 tanks quite like the stat and it's their second best stat outside after SkS breakpoints.

"Replace Tenacity with a new secondary stat that does something tanks want"

... You mean like Strength? Which Tanks want, because it increases their damage.

As that's the only thing Tanks actually want. Given how more defences are useless 99% of the time due to being able to already mitigate all relevant damage via CD's and healers massively OP oGCD heals.

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Seriously. I came up with like 6 hours worth of dissection covering lore, story, and mechanics, and you want to know the biggest reason Arcanist can't be removed from SMN?

Carbuncles.

I'm not kidding. They alone screw up every aspect related to splitting Summoner away from Arcanist and integrating Scholar in instead.

Not really.

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Egi Glamours, every instance with Alphinaud and Tataru fighting get partial overhauls and the Carbuncles get explicit animation reworks to account for fairy abilities. Egi being direct upgrades of them could survive mechanically as is but something would have to give elsewhere. The entirety of the ARR SMN questline would need a complete rework to account for not having something to upgrade your Egi into as it's explicitly tied to that area. Nevermind accounting for what happens in Shadowbringers or how it affects Scholar's questline.

Again not really.

Egi Glamours can easily be removed. Given they haven't improved on the system in like forever...

Alphinaud and Tataru can still have attacking Carbuncles. There's no reason why playable ARC having healing Carbuncles (Emerald and Topaz) means that things like Alphinaud's unique Onyx Carbuncle can't still do damage. Or Tataru just having an offensive Carbuncle randomly, in the like 2 fights she actually participates in.

Also, nothing about the SMN questline requires Carbuncles.

You don't "Upgrade" your Carbuncles into Egi. You simply gain the ability to summon Egi.

Lorewise it's not relevant that you had Carbuncles. The only relevance is a gameplay one where your Summon I and Summon II actions are altered after completing the relevant quests. With Summon III being a completely unique skill only obtained by SMN from the relevant quest, which is why it has an Ifrit icon instead of a Carbuncle.

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

SCH only requires you to change some costs and convert some Aetherflow cooldowns to be based around the Fey Gauge as well as altering their introduction at level 30 to support them being an independent job and doesn't affect anything beyond that.

SCH has to have you balance out them not having Aetherflow for MP generation as well as a "CD" for their oGCD's.

It requires having to think of a new way to generate Fey Gauge.

If they consume Fey Gauge you have to rework Fey Union's mechanics/potency.

They would have to rework Dissipation as that gets a large portion of its power through the extra refresh of Aetherflow to allow more oGCD heals.

They would need a new set of DoT's to work with (Since Healers seem to have this DoT focus with all of them having at least 1 DoT effect to maintain while spamming their nuke)

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

SMN requires the same amount of expenditure not only on Aetherflow but also on rethinking their DoT interactions and that doesn't even begin achieve what people want out of the class.

What people want out of the class is irrelevant. Since the same can be said about literally any change to any class. Including actually keeping SCH and SMN both branching off ARC.

SMN requires, DWT being put on a 1 minute CD.

A new way to utilize their oGCD's.

That's it.

They don't interact with Carbuncles at all. They don't use Aetherflow for anything other than spend it > get DWT once a minute. They don't necessarily need DoTs (There isn't really a precedent for having DoTs in the Mage role) and could just get nuke potency instead (Or temporary pet buffs, or pet actions that simulate DoTs)

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I'd argue that alongside Carbuncles Aetherflow and DoTs are what makes Arcanist the class it is to begin with

Which, SCH actually has more in common with than SMN.

SCH is more revolved around Aetherflow and DoTs than SMN (The majority of SMN's DoT application comes from Tri-Disaster which is used for Ruination moreso than actually applying the DoTs)

The current set up of Carbuncles also leads into SCH more easily, given that there are 2 Fairies and 2 Carbuncles (As opposed to the 3 Egi)

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

-Snip the lore-

None of that is relevant.

Just because SMN has more interaction with things that are MSQ relevant doesn't make and difference in being based off ARC, which finishes its leveling way before literally any of that stuff comes into play.

Like, the reason why we get Ifrit-Egi first is because that's the only Primal that we have slain at level 30. We haven't even gotten Hydaelyn's blessing at that point, let alone met Ascians and the Allag technology arcs...

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Simply put, there's no good way to seperate Summoner from Arcanist that couldn't be better achieved by simply splitting Scholar off instead.

I disagree.

ARC > SCH is far easier to do, given that they share the most similarities between their core gameplay structure.

SMN is a wild-card, because for the longest time, it had literally no job gauge focused around what a SMN should be focused around... SUMMONS.

In ARR it was "DoT Mage" because it's only thing separating its gameplay over BLM was it had 2 DoTs instead of one and had Fester which did more damage when you had DoTs on (With their AoE being entirely Bane because Lol-Bind is and was garbage)

In HW it was "Trance Mage" because it just worked on going into DWT once per minute with an artificial 60s CD via Aetherflow.

Now it's somewhat of a "Summoner" in SB because they finally tied Demi-Bahamut to their kit. Though, it still doesn't care about Aetherflow and just wants you to DWT twice.

Literally, Summoner's entire kit could be remade without Aetherflow really easily, by simply just putting Dreadwyrm Trance on a 1 minute CD and giving them a potency boost to cover the loss of Bio/Miasma. That's it. That's all that is "Required" and you'd still play the same way, spamming Not-Ruin constantly, proccing Not-Ruin IV, using DWT once a minute and every 2 DWT's allowing you to use Demi-Bahamut. All the while, using Tri-Disaster to apply Not-Ruination for extra potency.

Originally Posted by Kalise

3) Why separate SCH from ARC? Especially at this point, where it would be literally creating the job from scratch because no Bio, no Miasma (Thus no Miasma II), new job gauges (Since Fairy power is built from using Aetherflow)... It's something I could see for SMN maybe, if they decided to make them more Summon focused and gave them Rods instead of Books for weapons. But even that is unlikely.

Actually, of the two, it is more likely to separate Scholar as Arcanist is a DPS class, so it would make sense to upgrade to a DPS job. If the reason against separating Scholar is that it would be too much work, then that's fine, but they're not going to separate Summoner regardless if it would be less work (in your opinion) and leave the oddity of having a DPS class switch role after level 30.

Originally Posted by linay

Actually, of the two, it is more likely to separate Scholar as Arcanist is a DPS class, so it would make sense to upgrade to a DPS job. If the reason against separating Scholar is that it would be too much work, then that's fine, but they're not going to separate Summoner regardless if it would be less work (in your opinion) and leave the oddity of having a DPS class switch role after level 30.

You'd note that in my later posts I mention it would be easier to make Arcanist into a Healer class that then becomes Scholar.

Rather than having Arcanist be DPS and then randomly become a healer when it becomes Scholar.

Since, really, all that Arcanist is missing from the standard level 1-30 Healer kit is an AoE heal on level 10. After addressing that, it's simply a case of swapping the stat they use from INT to Mind and the Role Actions.

With the "Major" problem being messing with Carbuncles to make their "Upgrade" into Fairies make more sense.

Either way, I don't see it being particularly likely that they separate either job from the class. It seems like an awful lot of work for little gain at this point.

The benefits of divorcing one of the jobs from the class are very few.