Dead characters should stay dead (spoilers?)

[quartz90]

I would just like to iterate that when a heroic sacrifice is returned to life any emotional depth that might have preceded it is entirely nulled and lends the cast a sense of invulnerability that is hard to shake, and it has long term consequences for the story as a whole. Case in point;

Lousoix
Minfillia
Gosetsu & Tsukuyomi
Zenos
Nanamo
Gaius
Sokoban
Papalymo (TBD)
and the Warrior of Light

Nevermind Hildibrand. One Deus-Ex-Machina or two I can abide but this is plain amateurish. You will be hard pressed in getting me to shed a tear over the next person to die when the odds show they are more likely to return than stay dead. Thanks.

[Anonymoose]

I agree. (Mostly.)

If a writer sacrifices a character, there's a good chance that the event served a purpose. You cannot undo a death without also to some degree undoing what you'd set out to do with the death. For example, if you're creating an emotional moment and a sense of heightened stakes and loss, the emotional check you've written bounces upon their return.

That said, I try to give the benefit of the doubt and analyze it on a case-by-case basis. A lot of factors can influence the (dis)satisfaction of a character's demise or lack thereof. Did we see the death? What did the death accomplish? Was it used to punctuate a character arc or a narrative act? Was an emotional check written? Does their survival re-write or un-write past events? What is gained or lost?

Nanamo really bothered me for that reason. While the plot line of the false death was sensible, they wrote a Publisher's Clearing House-sized emotional check for it. The on-screen "death" was elaborate, down to the fading heartbeat and stillness of her eyes. It was touted as a Game of Thrones-esque dark ending to send off ARR with a bang. It was this Empire Strikes Back transition; for all we'd achieved, the journey to Ishgard would come at a great cost. We were hit with it in the trailers over and over for months. And then in 3.0 we went back and undid it with a few sidequests.

Louisoix (and don't forget Darnus) I would say I was more confused than anything. The whole situation was just bizarre. We killed Darnus with our own hands and watched them dissolve into mist and get absorbed by Dalamud. Louisoix seemed to be vaporized by a flare, but obviously this was never intended. (Granted, I like to think, in Lou's mind, it was.) The Bahamut vs. Captain Phoenix battle over Mor Dhona, Bahamut rematerializing them as tempered servants, etc. all seemed so unexpectedly grandiose, even if, in the end, it was a very memorable story. I'm not sure I have a final opinion on that case.

Gosetsu and Tsuyu made me tilt my head because the same patch created a convincing (but off-screen) end for them and undid it. This prevented the Nanamo-esque check-bounce, but left me wondering, "But why?" for months. The one thing that helped me accept it was that Gosetsu is a big bag of classic samurai tropes and, like 'em or not, arriving at the perfect place and time for his heroic redemptive sacrifice only to botch that, too, was consistent. That their story came full circle back to the same point and hit with a stronger punch helped me let it go. It's a shame to have two more examples of the "Only Mostly Dead" card played, but the outcome was satisfactory, in my opinion.

Zenos is presently in the situation Gosetsu and Tsuyu were: "BUT WHY?" As nice as it was to have a villain introduced in a base game survive that base game, was Zenos really the best candidate? He had a perfectly cromulent death. How are they going to improve on it? What is it that only Zenos could do; why did he specifically need to come back? I'm keeping an open mind until the resolution but so far I'm not into it, lol.

Gaius ...special dispensation. His death was off-screen and didn't buy much aside from a conclusion to the patch. And I've subjected these forums to enough of analyzing his behavior in 1.0 vs. 1.23 vs. 2.00 and arguing that he should have one more arc to round things out, so we can skip that, lol. I think in the end, Gaius is going to be worth it. It's a shame he's clustered with so many other "Only Mostly Dead" cards, but I do think he'll be a narrative bargain. That all the Optimate / Populares lore they crafted for Stormblood+ incidentally reframes Gaius's past in a way that maybe he didn't need to come back to fix it? Oof. Irony. But not inconsistent! Gaius's popularity and character depth also looked like accidental artifacts of an unanticipated "big picture," so <shrug> <raises glass>

But yes, in general I think they could stand to be a little more judicious about the big picture cost-benefit analysis of "Only Mostly Dead."

By all means, spend and spend big. But let the check clear.

Unless it's Tataru. She is INTOCABLE, do you hear me?

[Brightamethyst]

Generally speaking I agree. Dead people should just stay dead. Right now there's little sense of finality or sacrifice because they've said "ha, just kidding" so many times already. Papalymo's death should have been the emotional high point of 3.55, but felt kind of empty because we know there's a chance he might be back.

The two exceptions I make are Hildibrand, where the entire thing exists somewhat outside of the normal game, and Nanamo, where her death being faked actually made sense in context rather than feeling forced.

[KylePearlsand]

wait... Warrior of Light? When did we die?

That aside, a few characters didn't actually die. And by that I mean there was no fake out death associated with them. Minfillia never died but was sent to the first by Hydaelyn. She even tells you as such. Basically, she got caught up in Y'shtola's flow spell in order to reach Hydaelyn in the first place.

As for Sokoban, I don't remember him dying. He's stuck training to be the next Genbu but I don't recall him dying at any point in the story.

As for Zenos, his survival was foreshadowed since 2.2 during the leviathan storyline. He's less a living human being and rather a echo induced ghost possessing people.

I can see your point on Gaius, Nanamo and Gosetsu/Yotsuyu.

Though Louisoix is one that confuses me. When we meet him in 2.0, he was never alive. He's a ghost haunting the coil in order to keep intruders from dealing with Bahamut.

[Fenral]

Kids these days, man. Characters have yet to truly "come back" from the dead in FFXIV. At worst we've gotten inexplicable survivals and the odd primal reincarnation, but what of it?

Fact of the matter is, not everyone dies "for real" when they appear to. Contrary to popular belief, this is true to life. Sure people can die, but people can also survive against impossible odds. Friends thought lost can show up one day with the craziest stories about how they got there.

The joy and relief felt at these moments is a genuine part of the human experience. To deny it, or claim it "cheapens" any prior feeling of loss you may have had, is to cut yourself off from a fairly sizable chunk of reality.

[Anonymoose]

Minfillia never died but was sent to the first by Hydaelyn.

Agreed on this one; that's why I left her out in my first reply. Her case is bizarre, to be sure, but not a case of Only Mostly Dead. Minfilia was one of Hydaelyn's most devoted faithful; she'd so anything to help the Mothercrystal because she believed that She truly loved Eorzea and Her children. So when Hydaelyn requested her help, she came.

So ... she was sucked into an unstable teleport; transported body, mind, and soul to the Aetherial Sea; and made one with Hydaelyn. We saw her manifested briefly as the Word of the Mother, but this manifestation shattered. Technically speaking, she was no longer the mortal human she was as of that point and that's what hit Thancred hard, as he thought of himself as her second-foremost appointed guardian after F'lhaminn. In that sense she "died" but more specifically she was "lost to us."

Urianger gave Hydaelyn the strength to manifest Minfilia independently of Her and forge her into an Emissary of Light to counter Elidibus, but we have no idea how that's going. We'll have to figure out why she's a kid in the trailer and an adult on the poster, first. But I'm sure Thancred seeing her at an Ascilia-esque age is going to be quite the motivation multiplier.

[Yuyuka3]

wait... Warrior of Light? When did we die?

That aside, a few characters didn't actually die. And by that I mean there was no fake out death associated with them. Minfillia never died but was sent to the first by Hydaelyn. She even tells you as such. Basically, she got caught up in Y'shtola's flow spell in order to reach Hydaelyn in the first place.

As for Sokoban, I don't remember him dying. He's stuck training to be the next Genbu but I don't recall him dying at any point in the story.

As for Zenos, his survival was foreshadowed since 2.2 during the leviathan storyline. He's less a living human being and rather a echo induced ghost possessing people.

I can see your point on Gaius, Nanamo and Gosetsu/Yotsuyu.

Though Louisoix is one that confuses me. When we meet him in 2.0, he was never alive. He's a ghost haunting the coil in order to keep intruders from dealing with Bahamut.

That's 100% my own take on these things. Also, basically the only one of these people who truly died is Zenos, and his case is pretty... special, to say the least.

And yeah, when the heck did we die? xD
Spoilers or something? Yoshida explicitly said we wouldn't die, though...

[Frizze]

For all the false deaths we've seen, they have killed off some important characters and stuck to their guns(without hinting at a return). Lest we forget:
Moenbryda
Haurchefant
Papalymo
Ysayle

And among the more villainous set:
Rhitahtyn
Livia
Nabriales
Lahabrea
Igeyorhm
Thordan
Nidhogg
The Griffin
Grynewaht
Yotsuyu
Asahi

For a game where no one ever dies, thats a veritable bloodbath(and i feel like im forgetting some too).

[Seoulstar]

I'm quite sure we have seen more actual deaths than false deaths in this game if we're being honest.

[Remedi]

I think the problem is not the quantity but how they went.
Case we can examine
Gaius vs Nanamo.

Gaius death happened off screen while all his officers that truly died had an on-screen death. From that point onward he was in schroedinger mode because he was dead and alive at the same time. His explenation for surviving was something believable and what was shown to us was the usual way shows use to kill off for the time a character.

Nanamo on the other hand, we saw her drinking the cup, we saw the gagging and then falling to the floor in a deathlike state.
There was nothing that could point out that she was drugged to sleep, till then we had the idea that Teledji upped Lolorito in everyway or that Lolorito was on his side.
Now there could be the case that if you start in Ul'dah the pedler with you is smuggling Somnus (the substance that was used to put her asleep if I remember well) but that is just if you start as an ul'dah job and only if you remember completely.

However that is not an absolute I think, sometimes plot devices or hints can be just as BS
Like Zenos which honestly I felt had the perfect sendoff and didn't need anymore screentime imho.
The reason of both of his "coming back" are all fine in within the narrative given the relative power of the echo, but of all the ppl I think they were wasted on him. I can tolerate Gosetsu and Yotsuyu, but Zenos had already said everything he could say and so far they've not really change my mind.
I mean I like that they made the Sahagin priest relevant but not you know ANYTHING BUT HIM