Make Viera and Hrothgar non-binary / gender-neutral?

[Baalfrog]

How about no instead. That seems easier and far less volatile thing to do. Just need to look around for a bit, and done! SE didn't do it. Easy and no worm cans opened.

[Lauront]

You're asking me to summarize an article from nature (one of the world's leading academic journals), that's already a summary of a very complex subject.
The article explains it clearly. That's why I linked that specific article. With nice real life examples (e.g. a guy who had kids, and also had a womb).

Nah, I'm asking you to explain it, in your own words, because I have a sneaky suspicion it's just the first scientific-sounding article that came up when you googled the topic. It’s more that what people like you try to do is jump from a statistical anomaly and then hammer people when they point out that the vast, vast majority of the world does slot into the two sex paradigm.

But thanks for your generous offer, however I rather doubt the ability of someone spreading themselves so thinly over so many areas of inquiry, which take even the most intelligent individuals years to master for just one of them, to offer much of an education in the area. It'd lead a person less motivated by good faith to think one might be dealing with a troll.

I...don't see how that matters? 1.7% of the world population is some degree of intersex, without getting into the percentage of non-binary individuals, which is higher because, again gender =/= sex. Which is for real world statistics, and again, it has no bearing in this game. I was correcting someone who erroneously claimed there's only two sexes. My previous post in here is how I don't see SE making a non-binary race, even if I'd be okay with it. I'd rather see the male Viera and, if a non-binary/gender-neutral race is made in the future, I'd be okay with it.

Agreed, it has no bearing on the game, as for all intents and purposes it might go as low as 0% for the playable races.

[Azurymber]

Nah, I'm asking you to explain it, in your own words, because I have a sneaky suspicion it's just the first scientific-sounding article that came up when you googled the topic. It’s more that what people like you try to do is jump from a statistical anomaly and then hammer people when they point out that the vast, vast majority of the world does slot into the two sex paradigm.

But thanks for your generous offer, however I rather doubt the ability of someone spreading themselves so thinly over so many areas of inquiry, which take even the most intelligent individuals years to master for just one of them, to offer much of an education in the area. It'd lead a person less motivated by good faith to think one might be dealing with a troll.

My academic background is in neuroscience and psychology.
So while I'm not a specialist in molecular genetics or biochem, I have a background in them, as it's necessary to understand my field.

The vast majority of the world only slots into the 2-sex paradigm based on heuristical gender stereotypes (not science).
Defining sex at a genetic level isn't as clear cut as a y-chromosome. There is a lot of nuance. And evidence suggests it's a spectrum rather than binary.
There's obviously a bimodal distribution with 2 peaks. But that doesn't mean there isn't anything inbetween.
And then if you believe in evolution, you have to accept that genetic difference is a normal part of being human.
So if some intersex people exist (and they do), that means by definition sex isn't binary.
You can't discount 1-in-100 statistical anomalies (they matter just as much as everyone else).
For example, some people are double-jointed (hypermobility). And hypermobility is likely heritable. We don't start claiming that people who are double-jointed don't matter or don't exist.

The article I linked explains that the way science looks at sex is different from they way society looks at sex.
It talks about people who have a specific set of chromosomes (e.g. XX/female) but have sexual anatomy from the opposite gender.
It talks about how sexual characteristics can potentially change throughout one's lifetime (e.g. ppl with 5-alpha reductase deficiency often display as stereotypically female until puberty)
It talks about how recent evidence suggests we all have a diverse range of cells (some female, some male) further complicating definitions of sex.
It talks about rarer cases of this being very apparent (e.g. mosaicism, chimaerism)
It talks about how XX and XY cells can influence our biological functions (and mentions ongoing research in the area)
And it talks about ethics surrounding the scientific shift towards understanding sex as a spectrum (specifically in regards to newly born intersex children).

Again, lots of evidence from different fields of biology all showing that sex is not binary.

But this has little to do with the post. And like I said, if you have questions, ask me in game.
It's a complex topic, and a few lines isn't going to accurately represent it (hence linking to a longer nuanced article).

Regardless, diversity in a game isn't a bad thing.
Giving people more choice isn't going to hurt anyone.
Especially if it can be done with minimal effort on the development side (e.g. keeping existing models)

[Iscah]

from ff wiki: "Final Fantasy XIV gives exposition to the elusive male viera, who are virtually identical at birth to females; only upon maturing they are able to be identified gender wise."

So there is lore saying they are almost identical.
Can make up lore saying that some males choose to dress/live as "females" to remain with them. And others choose to be more masculine and leave.

I think this is actually countered by something you brought up later.

The article I linked explains that the way science looks at sex is different from they way society looks at sex.
[...]
It talks about how sexual characteristics can potentially change throughout one's lifetime (e.g. ppl with 5-alpha reductase deficiency often display as stereotypically female until puberty)

I'd previously seen a documentary segment about this, and it's exactly what came to mind when the lore information about Viera brought up that they're indistinguishable until puberty. Suppose a race-wide (or highly common) variation of this condition, with the result that the vast majority of children are apparently female, but the adults are still clearly male and female.

That, essentially, is what has already happened in reality. This is a text article based on the documentary I'd watched - basically, there's a village where it's common enough that it's not surprising when it happens.

So, whether the lore writers were aware of it or not, there's actually a genuine scientific base for Viera males not being identifiable as children, without requiring that they still appear feminine as adults.

[Scryar]

No, better don't do that.

[Gwenorai]

Then the question would be asked why Viera is the exception rather than the other races who also would have those outliners that also fall into this group? Perhaps if the character creator wasn't limited and was updated to allow for full body manipulation for design, and all 'pronouns' were removed - then yet again, perhaps. But we both know that isn't going to happen.

There is already an issue with male Viera being what they are according to some in the eastern culture - why? I do not know. I am not from the east; they have a different culture - even if I don't agree with the statement of male Viera being weird. Anyway, if they think that male Viera is weird, then I can assure you that 'non-binary' characters are even weirder to them.

And as someone has stated, gender is very much important for Viera due to the matriarchy. The two change appearance in regards to puberty - which can be said of a lot of youths; I'm sure plenty of us have come across young children for which you can't tell their gender. The twins are a prime example of this; there are many more where the 'youths' of Eorzea could pass for male and female - only their clothes and eyelashes seem to set them.

I also don't believe they would 'chose' their gender; especially one which has them ripped away from their families and forced into a lifestyle which will ultimately kill them in the process to achieve mastery or doom them to a life of solitude, especially when there are female wood wailers who do not have to suffer such a fate.

No, I suspect adding in the other gender would be less work for them - and of course; there is the other matter. Yeah, this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened just yet - not here. Not when we're still battling to have races not to be gender locked.

[Pixelburst]

Let people define their character's gender for themselves instead of defining it for them.

Or..... Pick a female or male race and just say you're non-binary? Isn't that how it's done in real life?

Don't list the gender for either race.

No, we're not doing that shit here, this isn't Tumblr.

Have some masculine-esque facial choices for Viera

Just play a female roe with bunny ears. Simple.

And some feminine-esque facial choices for Hrothgar

Just play a muscular Highlander with Tamamo Ears.

And add hair options that allow players to make male-looking or female-looking characters of each race.

Just play the other races.

[missybee]

Just play a female roe with bunny ears. Simple.

I do actually think something like this would at least help satiate people. If we had a more realistic-looking pair of bunny ears (think Tamamo or Werewolf headpieces), that might allow people to sort of create the facade of...sort of male-ish Viera (or buff girl bunnies, whatever)?

It ain't fixing the "Genderlock? In my 2019?!" problem, but it's something.

[Atlas-04]

How bout no.

[Valensia]

Oh sweet baby jesus no.