Female Hrothgar as a playable race. Show your support!

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

It's an interesting yet misguided idea imo.
Like, yeah ... Lions have manes. Manes are not a thing they can control, it's a ton of fur on them meant to protect their neck/ intimidate other males/ attract mates and display their vigor to all. It's condition can reflect how often they come out on top in fights. It's a thing that reflects their qualities that they can't really do anything about. So yeah, it's a neat idea to have that reflected in the Lion men cause that's very much how it works. Tis why the females seem to simply not have manes, Lions are 1 of the first iconic examples you think about when it comes to sexual dimorphism in mammals.


Problem is that in the way it was implemented it greatly decreases the amount of freedom and options they have for player customization. You can't make your character skinny or thick when it comes to the body, you can just change the height and skin color and boobs mostly (tails for races with tails). Other than glams a massive part of making your character in this game look unique is changing the shape of your head. Be it through hair styles or hats or helms, changing the shape of your head is important for not looking like a clone and every other race has a high amount of options for that. So when you can't wear a huge amount of hats/ helms and have very limited hair you objectively have few options. Even worse when the only other option for your hair is a cash shop potion

It's like how "make a REAL Fran Viera" sounds good on paper until you run into the hat problem and realize most people woulda been happy with a Bunny race with modded Miqote ears and fluffy tails so long as they're cute/ pretty and could wear hats/ hairs. Now you have a popular race with very full options to look unique, where most people look like clones cause they have like 8 hair styles and zero hats.

TBH I'd prefer Viera and Hrothgar had heads that worked in the system but limited FOOTGEAR so that they could have digitigrade feet but that's just me.

Well we are talking about Intelligent Bi-pedal Lions here, so said Manes can be controlled to at least an extent.
The only limitation is anybody thinking that SE or a dev is gonna be 100% realistic to the IRL counterpart that not even a shred of fantasy will be applied. There is no problem that the hair is basically their fur, if this concept is in fact what they are going for, then there are already a few 'hairstyls' that show its not as limiting as people may think it is.

If your real grievance here is the Gear Options for the head, nobody disagrees that it sucks, but the hair isn't the issue, its the shape of the head. Simple things like glasses and circlets dont require much (Although some things need placement adjustments) but hats and helms will be an issue because up till now all gear was designed for Humanoid faces, not a beast face. So they would need to design gear twice over now and redesign alot of old gear (some hats they could just scale) if they are gonna make it fit the Hrothgar head.

Fantasia to change the hair im sure is a design oversight and probably not intended originally. I do believe and have hopes this will be addressed and changed next Expansion along with many other things.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

TBH I'd prefer Viera and Hrothgar had heads that worked in the system but limited FOOTGEAR so that they could have digitigrade feet but that's just me.

I'm still so salty a 'better version' of this wasn't their starting gear, that way they could've had actual animal feet without sacrificing anything

Out of everything on the Hrothgar, this is probably the ONE thing I hate.
C'Mon, they are a Beast race, they typically are barefooted. Why does every other (real) beast tribe get to be Barefoot and not a Hrothgar!? D;

[reivaxe]

I'm still so salty a 'better version' of this wasn't their starting gear, that way they could've had actual animal feet without sacrificing anything





I doubt that'd be fair, specially since Viera and Hroth have been outright neglected so far, pandemic aside [not to mention potential coding issues]. I think either they'd be just as limited, or, more optimistically, the former are getting an update, but that would be considerably more work. The least they could do though, is make Minfilia, Y'shtola, Lightning and Aymeric's hair available for Viera, since only those 4 involve real money.

Yeah, Hrothgar starter gear is pretty shat.

And I really don't think they care about "fair". Nothing about Viera or Hrothgar as is is close to "fair". Hell, they don't even treat the humans "fair" (As in Meddie males have 6 faces, Meddie Females 5 and Highlanders 4 for both genders and the males don't even get eyebrows).

I think they care far more about bringing their vision to light and pleasing people tbh. That logic pretty much explains everything they do.

Well we are talking about Intelligent Bi-pedal Lions here, so said Manes can be controlled to at least an extent.

The only limitation is anybody thinking that SE or a dev is gonna be 100% realistic to the IRL counterpart that not even a shred of fantasy will be applied.

I mean, tell that to YP cause it's sure not the way it appears in game.

They can't style their Manes beyond some added locks in the face features option, they can't have highlights, they can't share the types of manes of other faces and they can't shave it off like Roe or Highlanders.
It's not a thing they can control or play with, it's legit just treated as "lion manes, rawr!". And the only appearance of the females we have just made them bald as 1 would assume from a female lion ... no random made up manes, just straight up bald like a reg cat lady.

Anything beyond what we have seen is an assumption, be it my main assumption that they will have interchangeable racial hair styles (via "new lore" saying that the females make wigs for themselves or just have manageable hair or w/e) or the assumption that the devs took "lion manes" to heart so fully yet will disregard the inherent sexual dimorphism of the animal simply to push the same feature on females.

Always option 3 ... females just don't have hair or manes. That they're just all bald like in the art shows us but because they don't have to deal with manes they can wear hats and also have "full body fur patterns".

If your real grievance here is the Gear Options for the head, nobody disagrees that it sucks, but the hair isn't the issue, its the shape of the head. Simple things like glasses and circlets dont require much (Although some things need placement adjustments) but hats and helms will be an issue because up till now all gear was designed for Humanoid faces

The hair is a major issue in more ways than 1. Their head shape doesn't stop them from wearing hats as seen with in game hoods and the fact that you can plop a hat on them easy with a mod, their FACE stops them from wearing open face helms though and their manes being a CC option that the devs don't want to take away stops hats.
Devs seem to have a design principle of "It HAS to cover up the mane for Hrothgar males to wear it" when it comes to larger head gear which is why bucket helms that cover the face are acceptable, hoods are acceptable but hats are not.

I mean, I'm normally anti-mods as an argument BUT I have found many examples of mods with Hrothgar wearing hats with no problem because the shape of their head (not face, the head) isn't very different from other races, it's round. The problem seems to be that SE legit doesn't want to turn off manes unless the head id fully covered and they don't want to make hat-mane models.

Fantasia to change the hair im sure is a design oversight and probably not intended originally. I do believe and have hopes this will be addressed and changed next Expansion along with many other things.

There was no oversight in this, they made each face to have 2 manes and gave each head a "face feature" to add to the mane. It was a strange ass core design decision.

All they would have to do to make manes fit all the faces is make the ears and foreheads match as these 2 things affect the hairline.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Yeah, Hrothgar starter gear is pretty shat.

And I really don't think they care about "fair". Nothing about Viera or Hrothgar as is is close to "fair". Hell, they don't even treat the humans "fair" (As in Meddie males have 6 faces, Meddie Females 5 and Highlanders 4 for both genders and the males don't even get eyebrows).

I think they care far more about bringing their vision to light and pleasing people tbh. That logic pretty much explains everything they do.


I mean, tell that to YP cause it's sure not the way it appears in game.

They can't style their Manes beyond some added locks in the face features option, they can't have highlights, they can't share the types of manes of other faces and they can't shave it off like Roe or Highlanders.
It's not a thing they can control or play with, it's legit just treated as "lion manes, rawr!". And the only appearance of the females we have just made them bald as 1 would assume from a female lion ... no random made up manes, just straight up bald like a reg cat lady.

Anything beyond what we have seen is an assumption, be it my main assumption that they will have interchangeable racial hair styles (via "new lore" saying that the females make wigs for themselves or just have manageable hair or w/e) or the assumption that the devs took "lion manes" to heart so fully yet will disregard the inherent sexual dimorphism of the animal simply to push the same feature on females.

Always option 3 ... females just don't have hair or manes. That they're just all bald like in the art shows us but because they don't have to deal with manes they can wear hats and also have "full body fur patterns".


The hair is a major issue in more ways than 1. Their head shape doesn't stop them from wearing hats as seen with in game hoods and the fact that you can plop a hat on them easy with a mod, their FACE stops them from wearing open face helms though and their manes being a CC option that the devs don't want to take away stops hats.
Devs seem to have a design principle of "It HAS to cover up the mane for Hrothgar males to wear it" when it comes to larger head gear which is why bucket helms that cover the face are acceptable, hoods are acceptable but hats are not.

I mean, I'm normally anti-mods as an argument BUT I have found many examples of mods with Hrothgar wearing hats with no problem because the shape of their head (not face, the head) isn't very different from other races, it's round. The problem seems to be that SE legit doesn't want to turn off manes unless the head id fully covered and they don't want to make hat-mane models.



There was no oversight in this, they made each face to have 2 manes and gave each head a "face feature" to add to the mane. It was a strange ass core design decision.

All they would have to do to make manes fit all the faces is make the ears and foreheads match as these 2 things affect the hairline.

--I think we are talking about 2 different things here. Your going on about what you can do in game currently, and Im talking about what can happen in the future if/when they expand on it. It was stated new hairstyles are coming, who is to say they wont update other customization options for the Hrothgar?
We haven't seen a Hrothgar female, everything you are saying is an assumption based on a vague mural, and attaching the IRL lioness to what you think will happen. Which is...a very limited mindset/imagination, no offense.

--I doubt this is some design principle and is more so they just didnt have the time and such to attach these hats. It was stated they just barley got them finished in time. Considering they tried to make 2 new races I can believe them.

--What Im saying is its an oversight to make us pay for a Fantasia to change the hair.
Your not changing the head to change the hair, you are simply, changing the hair. Like you said, each face has 2 manes, id have to go back into CC to change the face/head; which requires a Fantasia. But it shouldn't just to switch to the 2nd Hairstyle. I believe this is an oversight.

[Qurho]

I don't see why the ladies would be limited to having no hair at all, but I could see shorter cuts. Hopefully their head to body ratio would be a little better balanced though, otherwise they might need big hair to avoid looking awkward. A problem I have with hroth (men) is that their heads can end up looking kind of goofily small with the wrong 'do and glamour combo.

The 'needing to fantasia to change hair' thing really is baffling, especially over a year in after the release of the new races. The FF14 devs are more open about their work than FF11's used to be, sure, but I really wish they'd give us something at all about what's going on behind the curtain outside of 'we're working on it' or 'we can't, sorry'. I remember when folks discovered the state of hrothgar via the benchmark, yeesh.

Of note, there are two hrothgar in bozja that do have hairstyles outside of the typical ones available for their faces. One doesn't quite fit cleanly, and again, they're still only race specific ones... but it's something to maybe look forward to, at least.

[reivaxe]

--I think we are talking about 2 different things here. Your going on about what you can do in game currently, and Im talking about what can happen in the future if/when they expand on it. It was stated new hairstyles are coming, who is to say they wont update other customization options for the Hrothgar?

They have shown zero desire to make Hrothgar have "better" customization options aka changing hair like everyone else. They are very much aware of how Hrothgar hair works and have never said that they plan to unlink the hair from the face as far as I know.

I'm not just basing things what can happen currently, I'm basing things on what they have said they're doing and what they have addressed. I can't possible know when a new engine or relaunch of this game will come but unlike butt sliders they haven't said anything about us getting "head changes to Hrothgar!" as a perk to more power.

If they did I'd be all for it though, but as it stands I don't see the point in saying "Hrothgar hair isn't TOO bad!" because you think they could maybe do something about it in the future when it's run on a rl payment system and they have never addressed that as a thing they wish to fix.

We haven't seen a Hrothgar female, everything you are saying is an assumption based on a vague mural, and attaching the IRL lioness to what you think will happen. Which is...a very limited mindset/imagination, no offense.

What? That's not "vague" art, it's official lore art found in game meant to clearly depict the queen, other Hrothgar females and a femroe. They wouldn't have made it and put it in the game if they didn't want to show people a representation of Female Hrothgar or to compare how the devs see them vs a Femroe.

That art is more than we've ever gotten for something like this as it's not concept art or some such thing, it's actually in the game and lore.

If you don't want to accept the artistic representation of them that's in the game that's on you ..
Also, I'm not "limiting my imagination" because of xyz, I'm just following the dev's logic. Nothing about Hrothgar male's hair makes any sense in anyway unless they REALLY wanted to do this stupid face locked mane thing because as stated in the CC they look "leonine" ... and female lions don't have manes in RL or the art showing them in game.

Those are the cards we're given, no offense but it seems you're rejecting the reality of things in order to hope for an outcome that more so suits your pov/ desires.

--I doubt this is some design principle and is more so they just didnt have the time and such to attach these hats. It was stated they just barley got them finished in time. Considering they tried to make 2 new races I can believe them.

Hrothgar and Viera were never meant to get all the head gear like hats and such. Last they spoke on the topic was that they were looking into away to get "some helms that are unique to Viera" but no promises seeing as they told us a long time ago what to expect.

--What Im saying is its an oversight to make us pay for a Fantasia to change the hair.
Your not changing the head to change the hair, you are simply, changing the hair. Like you said, each face has 2 manes, id have to go back into CC to change the face/head; which requires a Fantasia. But it shouldn't just to switch to the 2nd Hairstyle. I believe this is an oversight.

Maybe you're misusing the word oversight.
"Oversight: an unintentional failure to notice or do something".
This would imply that the way it's set up was a mistake when it is not.

You don't just change manes when you change to a different head with the same face, it also changes your 5th facial feature option so that you can get a completely different fur add on.

The implementation of Viera and Hrothgar is cut at the knees by poor choices and a failure to look at things from a player's PoV ... but they were not mistakes that the devs said they will fix and nothing points to that being the case.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

---They have shown zero desire to make Hrothgar have "better" customization options aka changing hair like everyone else. They are very much aware of how Hrothgar hair works and have never said that they plan to unlink the hair from the face as far as I know.

I'm not just basing things what can happen currently, I'm basing things on what they have said they're doing and what they have addressed. I can't possible know when a new engine or relaunch of this game will come but unlike butt sliders they haven't said anything about us getting "head changes to Hrothgar!" as a perk to more power.

If they did I'd be all for it though, but as it stands I don't see the point in saying "Hrothgar hair isn't TOO bad!" because you think they could maybe do something about it in the future when it's run on a rl payment system and they have never addressed that as a thing they wish to fix.


---What? That's not "vague" art, it's official lore art found in game meant to clearly depict the queen, other Hrothgar females and a femroe. They wouldn't have made it and put it in the game if they didn't want to show people a representation of Female Hrothgar or to compare how the devs see them vs a Femroe.

That art is more than we've ever gotten for something like this as it's not concept art or some such thing, it's actually in the game and lore.

If you don't want to accept the artistic representation of them that's in the game that's on you ..
Also, I'm not "limiting my imagination" because of xyz, I'm just following the dev's logic. Nothing about Hrothgar male's hair makes any sense in anyway unless they REALLY wanted to do this stupid face locked mane thing because as stated in the CC they look "leonine" ... and female lions don't have manes in RL or the art showing them in game.

Those are the cards we're given, no offense but it seems you're rejecting the reality of things in order to hope for an outcome that more so suits your pov/ desires.


---Hrothgar and Viera were never meant to get all the head gear like hats and such. Last they spoke on the topic was that they were looking into away to get "some helms that are unique to Viera" but no promises seeing as they told us a long time ago what to expect.


---Maybe you're misusing the word oversight.
"Oversight: an unintentional failure to notice or do something".
This would imply that the way it's set up was a mistake when it is not.

You don't just change manes when you change to a different head with the same face, it also changes your 5th facial feature option so that you can get a completely different fur add on.

The implementation of Viera and Hrothgar is cut at the knees by poor choices and a failure to look at things from a player's PoV ... but they were not mistakes that the devs said they will fix and nothing points to that being the case.

---What indicates Zero Desire?
The fact they haven't done anything or said anything over the expansion lifestyle sure is concerning, But lets not forget or pretend other things weren't going on. They are also working on another huge project that they showed off (FF:XVI) and they also need to continue working on new content for the expansion patches as well as fixes and adjustments/balancing, and in-game calendar events, so on and etc. Not to mention Covid-19 happened which effected things for abit.
ALOT more things required more attention then making more hairstyles and customization for the Hrothgar & Viera. But it was already addressed, that more hairstyles were coming. A time of release was just never told to us. And at this point, either A- We might see some updates in the Showcase on Feb5. Or B- we should see updates in the next expansion.
Most people will say it will be a great way to sell the expansion...I just think it makes sense to put it along with other changes they planned so they could focus on more important things.
Not like the Hrothgar or Viera came out Broken.

---Its Vague because its not detailed. Its not 100% relevant to their final design; IF we ever do see them in game and become playable.
Its a really pretty picture, but we can't just mentally default to it when we wanna imagine what Female Hrothgar will look like. I highly doubt they will be brightly colored bald creatures. Some may be, but I doubt all of them would be. There is no artistic representation, or to accept or deny, the Reality is in fact that Female Hrothgar; at present, are simply not in the game. We do not have a clear visual. That Mural is the only thing we have, and its likely stylized for the kind of art that it is. Meaning that may not be what they ACTUALLY look like.
Thats not me projecting a desire.

---Im not familiar with "some helms that are unique to Viera" I mean I hope it happens, Im on board with Viera and Hrothgar unique gear for helms. It would be like if we got Bangaa, Id expect there to at least be a glamour specific to them that they where those blindfolds/Visors. I think it would be neat, and add abit of value to them.

---It sort of sounds like Im using the word correctly...
Re-explaining it... each head has 2 hairstyle options. I shouldn't need a Fantasia if I want to chose the 2nd hairstyle option.
I should just be able to get a haircut like normal if I wanna change the hairstyle.
If it snot Crystal Clear, Im talking about the hairstyle attached to the selected face.

Example
So, If Im using Face 2, and Hairstyle 1.
It should not cost a Fantasia to switch to Face 2, and Hairstyle 2.
I think the need of a Fantasia to do this, is an Oversight.
I have my doubts that its intentional to make you spend $10 or so to change from hairstyle1 to Hairstyle2.

That more clear?

[reivaxe]

---What indicates Zero Desire?
The fact they haven't done anything or said anything over the expansion lifestyle sure is concerning, But lets not forget or pretend other things weren't going on.

They actually have said a number of things.

The first thing they said about Viera and Hrothgar was that they would never get to wear all head gear and that Viera would get some shared hair styles that worked for them and Hrothgar would get new faces.
"E3 2019: Since Hrothgar have hairstyles tied to their character creation options rather than being separately selectable, you will not be able to apply unlockable hairstyles, but they might implement more face types after 5.0. As for Viera, there's some legacy haristyles they'll able to eventually implement, but not all of them. Some of unlockable hairstyles should be supported, others may not be."

They later completely stopped saying that Viera would get old hair (seems they changed their mind after saying that ... ) and just said "Viera are getting new unique Viera hair and Hrothgar are getting new heads".
The latest thing they said was that they're "looking into ways to make some helms that are unique to them but we told you not to expect it for a reason".

These are facts and things they said they're working on and want to do that we know. We can point at these things and be assured that they will come "some day" or know that it's something that they think about.
They have never once addressed the fact that Hrothgar players have to pay $10 if they want to change their hair and keep the same face.

It is this way by design, the mane system is poop and IMO as it stands you can WISH and DEMAND they change it but there's no reason to think it's gonna happen by it's self or to think the devs want to change it.

If they do change it then great ... but they have talked about these races head updates a good bit and never once said they would take the manes outta the CC.

Not like the Hrothgar or Viera came out Broken.

They "work", they're just broken from a core design stand point. Tis why they are the first and only "limited races", even the devs know they're not in the best situation which is why they're trying to find work arounds behind the scenes.

---Its Vague because its not detailed. Its not 100% relevant to their final design; IF we ever do see them in game and become playable.

It's detailed to the point where this shows literally the defining features carried over in all the Femroe faces as well as their body shape, head shape and stature.


These aint stick figures, it IS "100% relevant to their final design" as it's in the game. It's not some random concept art like the HW Viera stuff.

---Im not familiar with "some helms that are unique to Viera" I mean I hope it happens, Im on board with Viera and Hrothgar unique gear for helms

Because of my interest in Female Hrothgar I seem to stay ontop of their comments more than most when it comes to Viera and Hrothgar, this comment was said in sometime between Feb and May (Or ... June?) of 2020 in a live stream with concept artist and YP going over about how they had to make sacrifices to bring the 2 races into the game as is and how they're still trying to find a way to make unique helms for them but it "was a sacrifice so yeah, no promises".

(Fun fact, the original design for Hrothgar was done by a monster design artist and the first attempt at a Hrothgar face was the attractive face 2 that everyone uses, it's the one they based the rest on.)

I think the need of a Fantasia to do this, is an Oversight.
I have my doubts that its intentional to make you spend $10 or so to change from hairstyle1 to Hairstyle2.

That more clear?

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's silly to think that the devs "accidently" locked manes of the same head behind a pay wall.
EVERYTHING they did is intentional, no one forgot to press the right button and now "Whoops, we shipped the expansion but there's literally no option for Hrothgar to change manes without a potion ... welp, guess we can't do anything about that!".

As for how they see manes ..
To put it in visuals ... they're willing to turn off manes for things that fully cover that part of the head like this.




Hrothgar HEADS are not in some shape that doesn't allow them to fit hats properly.
You can plop a hat on them easy if you take away the mane. (you can also turn off the ears as seen with all the hoods they can wear)



Some modders even make em work with hair ..




Now, why SE doesn't or can't make "hat hair models" for Hrothgar to wear hats is anyone's guess. But the shape of the head doesn't seem to be the problem, the problem seems to be in the way they treat manes. I see no reason for why the mane can go bye-bye for hoods and bucket helms but not hats other than them just really wanting to show off the mane when possible or w/e.

So yeah, I'd gladly take bald Females with zero hair who can wear hats over this mane non-sense.


At the end of the day the devs know that people are not happy with the limits of Hrothgar and Viera, they have said a number of times that they are looking into ways to work around the head gear limits with no promises as it was a compromise for these races as is. IMO they wouldn't bring the other genders with the same limits as that would just be counter productive given that they arn't happy with either the limits or how the limits were received by fans.

[Fukuro]

The 'needing to fantasia to change hair' thing really is baffling, especially over a year in after the release of the new races. The FF14 devs are more open about their work than FF11's used to be, sure, but I really wish they'd give us something at all about what's going on behind the curtain outside of 'we're working on it' or 'we can't, sorry'. I remember when folks discovered the state of hrothgar via the benchmark, yeesh.

It just baffles me why they didn‘t allow hrothgar at least to change face at the aesthetician as an exceptipn, just as a compromise (at least until they fix the head/hair issue)i just find it totally unfair that people that want to play hrothgar have to „pay“ to change their hair.
i hope it‘s because of coding issues and not because of simple greed. the whole head-hair issues with horthgar must be annoying as is, so why limit them further?

[AncientWillow]

I mean they basicly Ronso and in ff10 there are female ronso's that play blitzball with long hair so ya defy