Thoughts on Dancer as a Ranged DPS

[zferolie]

zferolie, its flamenco NOT flamingo.

Ah thanks. I had a feeling I would spell it wrong.

[Phoenicia]

Basic partycomposition is 1 ranged, 1 caster and 2 melee dps. However you can still run savage with 2 ranged regardless it is magical or physical because they share same position. Or even if you count only certain type it is exactly same 3/1 than 6/2. Even if you count dps number as 10 for 4 spots and 3 healers for 2 spot, healer ratio is 1.5 and dps is 2.5 that mean 40% dps players will miss party or 50% ranged players can not play their job if every job would have equally amount players like in ideal scenario. If they would release healer, healers ratio would be 4/2 tanks 4/2 melee 4/2 ranged 2/1 and caster 3/1. Trinity system would be almost balanced if they would release healer instead dps. Imo that was bad choice. Even releasing RDM during stormblood was pretty big misstake imo, because that totally messed up trinity system we currently have.

No where in game does it state "basic composition is 1 ranged, 1 caster and 2 melee DPS"... In most places it just says "(2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 DPS)" in brackets for most 8-man DF instances. In the few cases it DOES specify, it is 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster and 1 "other" that is a duplicate of the three. The "meta" favored 2 melees because in ARR the highest DPS and utility lied within the melee role (MNK and NIN). In HW "meta" dropped off the caster in favore of 2 ranged to buff the highest DPS which lied, again, in the melee role (DRG+NIN). In Stormblood, the highest DPS has been in the caster role since 4.1, but people have been so used to their meta that didn't want to break from it. FFLogs recently (since 4.4) started taking double caster comps that are closing in for the fastest kills.

Here's the source from game to the party composition:


Now we have 6 "ranged" DPS to choose from and only 4 melee.. It's high time we see more variety over this "double melee meta" that I've personally grown very bored of.

[Seraphor]

Not sure why everyone is thinking Dancer will get ninja gear. All the Magical DPS share the same gear, same as tank and healer, so why not Ranged Melee? It would be weird that 1 ranged DPS would not share with the other 2 when all of them are a mix of DPS and support.

All casters wear Casting gear because it has INT.
Scouting and Aiming both feature DEX, so it is possible they could go either way, and the ninja aesthetic would seem to suit Dancer more than the Aiming gear sets generally do.
This would also gives us 2 for 2 in gear to job distribution, instead of 1:3. Which would then free them up to implement a Maiming gear melee DPS in 6.0 without worrying about Scouting. (pls be hammer/mace)

[silverlunarfox]

It's Axel the job. Got your rotation memorized?

All of this ^^

Really now though, I didn't really want a third healer (didn't want a fourth tank either....and I tank quite a bit but here we are). And I say that as a healer main. Having a 3rd ranged physical made more sense. And honestly seeing the video of it, may be the first DPS I want to fully master at this point.

[Sunako]

No where in game does it state "basic composition is 1 ranged, 1 caster and 2 melee DPS"... In most places it just says "(2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 DPS)" in brackets for most 8-man DF instances. In the few cases it DOES specify, it is 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster and 1 "other" that is a duplicate of the three. The "meta" favored 2 melees because in ARR the highest DPS and utility lied within the melee role (MNK and NIN). In HW "meta" dropped off the caster in favore of 2 ranged to buff the highest DPS which lied, again, in the melee role (DRG+NIN). In Stormblood, the highest DPS has been in the caster role since 4.1, but people have been so used to their meta that didn't want to break from it. FFLogs recently (since 4.4) started taking double caster comps that are closing in for the fastest kills.

Here's the source from game to the party composition:


Now we have 6 "ranged" DPS to choose from and only 4 melee.. It's high time we see more variety over this "double melee meta" that I've personally grown very bored of.

I did not say what is basic composition in game, I said what is basic composition in partyfinder. I have cleared every savage turn via pf during stormblood and I know exactly what most players demand there and why. You can clear any savage even with 4 ranged or 4 melee, that is not the case. The thing is most melee have different gear set while casters have their own and physical ranged have their own gear set. Ppl not wanna share loot between multiple casters or ranged, because gearing take longer that way. If you play 2 melee + caster + ranged, everybody have their own (left side)gear set and there is no competition and you get what you want if it drop. If you have that opportunity, you wanna use it.

[PogueX]

Im just kind of worried how nerf the dancer class will be. Look at the two range classes and they have two different roles. MCH is more damage and less utility, while BRD is more utility and less damage. So im taking it the Dancer will be in the middle ground of support and damage. If not than it will KILL the MCH job if it's high damage

[Dualgunner]

No where in game does it state "basic composition is 1 ranged, 1 caster and 2 melee DPS"... In most places it just says "(2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 DPS)" in brackets for most 8-man DF instances. In the few cases it DOES specify, it is 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster and 1 "other" that is a duplicate of the three. The "meta" favored 2 melees because in ARR the highest DPS and utility lied within the melee role (MNK and NIN). In HW "meta" dropped off the caster in favore of 2 ranged to buff the highest DPS which lied, again, in the melee role (DRG+NIN). In Stormblood, the highest DPS has been in the caster role since 4.1, but people have been so used to their meta that didn't want to break from it. FFLogs recently (since 4.4) started taking double caster comps that are closing in for the fastest kills.

Here's the source from game to the party composition:


Now we have 6 "ranged" DPS to choose from and only 4 melee.. It's high time we see more variety over this "double melee meta" that I've personally grown very bored of.

But...the picture you posted, circled in red, illustrates that the game treats physical ranged and magical ranged as separate. 3 phys ranged, 3 casters, not 6 ranged. Unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere.

[Phoenicia]

I did not say what is basic composition in game, I said what is basic composition in partyfinder. I have cleared every savage turn via pf during stormblood and I know exactly what most players demand there and why. You can clear any savage even with 4 ranged or 4 melee, that is not the case. The thing is most melee have different gear set while casters have their own and physical ranged have their own gear set. Ppl not wanna share loot between multiple casters or ranged, because gearing take longer that way. If you play 2 melee + caster + ranged, everybody have their own (left side)gear set and there is no competition and you get what you want if it drop. If you have that opportunity, you wanna use it.

Even with that, EVERY melee shares loot with someone. SAM and MNK share all gear. DRG also shares right side with them. NIN shares right side with BRD/MCH. Meta took BRD+MCH and completely locked casters out...

Also tanks and healers forcefully share loot, and was even worse before SB when they waited in line for STR accessories. Why shouldn't DPS "ever" share loot? Entitled much?

Upgrade items, weapon token and coffer are all already shared between the 8 players involved. Also let's not pretend pages don't exist and that roughly half the raid gear isn't even BiS. So loot, while still is a concern, was never the "first concern" in PF -or any raid- composition choices since successfully clearing should be the bigger concern or you won't get that loot in the first place.

Since when did PF become a gospel anyway? PF tends to be just sheep blindly following the shepherds also known as "cutting edge raiders" and/or "speed runners" without understanding where they have nothing backing up their claims except "so or so done so and you're an idiot for not agreeing with them".

Just look at all the tanks that never step into tank stance because Xeno said it's bad some 2 years ago or healers that only heal with oGCDs and will let you die if it wasn't enough because some SCH healed all of Chaos with 1 healing GCD leaving out important variables such as gear and extreme skill of those players and the rest of their teams. Then said players get very toxic when they die parroting things like: "I had CD up, y u no heal?!" or "you had excog, y u die?!" forgetting that their gear and skill are lacking. But that's derailing and I only wanted to mention an example.

But...the picture you posted, circled in red, illustrates that the game treats physical ranged and magical ranged as separate. 3 phys ranged, 3 casters, not 6 ranged. Unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere.

The game does treat them as different roles in high-end duties but the same in PvP. And all DPS jobs as 1 role everywhere else (dungeons, 24 mans, non-latest extreme primal). Regardless of that, my point, however, is that there is more not-melee than there are melee and if you are concerned about "balance job choices" then break out of the double melee.

[Shurrikhan]

Why shouldn't DPS "ever" share loot? Entitled much?

I mean, if we're considering them by sub-role, Tanks don't share loot with anyone but Tanks, and Healers don't share loot with anyone but Healers. Only DPS share loot among their sub-roles. (Though that's more precisely only Scouting and Striking, as Aiming and Casting are both isolated.)

It's ultimately irrelevant, though, as we can just inflate or deflate drop chances however we like to compensate.

The only remaining change of "not sharing", then, would be punitive: DRG would have to farm tomes for Maiming accessories and NIN for Scouting accessories in addition to everything else. That's far from "entitled". That's sadistic.

But...the picture you posted, circled in red, illustrates that the game treats physical ranged and magical ranged as separate. 3 phys ranged, 3 casters, not 6 ranged. Unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere.

Ultimately, fight design itself will usually demand four <+mobility> jobs and four <+range> jobs, but that's not a matter of sub-roles so much as simply who can play in those positions at small enough loss to still make enrage timers. When Ranged had cast times, they generally had to fill a ranged position due to damage loss if clutching out mobility, but now that they're back to their chicken-run freedom from ARR, they can play in the mobile "melee" position just as easily. So even if you have "One Melee, One Ranged, One Caster, One Other", that "Ranged" isn't necessarily ranged in function.

The restriction in this case also has far more to do with attempting to idiot-proof DF to reduce frustrations during glamour runs than anything that would apply to content generally, whether at the casual level or the cutting edge, and really shouldn't be taken as implicative of any broader esign philosophy. As of ShB there will be (up to) 6 mobile and (definitely) 6 ranged DPS, but admittedly each among the "Ranged" classification will likely still feel far more like casters than melee, which puts the balance of gameplay/aesthetic at a further imbalance: 4 point-blank DPS and 6 at-range DPS.