Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Neither are Xande, Doga, Unei, the Labyrinth of the Ancients, Syrcus Tower, and the World of Darkness. The XIV versions of these characters and locations are still vastly different from the game the Crystal Tower raids are in homage to. Eden has only appeared in FF8 prior to this as well, and it was a Guardian Force in that game, not a Sin Eater. It also couldn't cause a Flood of Light—that was from Final Fantasy 3's lore, not 8's. And quite a few of Return to Ivalice's settings only ever appeared in Tactics and 12—just either, not both—yet are so vastly different from each other that the reference is strictly superficial.

Hell, Ivalice in XIV is a nation that rose in fell so long ago that it's considered a myth, with uncovering the truth of its existence being one of the plot threads in the Return to Ivalice raids. The country the Return to Ivalice raids take place in isn't named Ivalice—It's Dalmasca. The continent isn't named Ivalice, either—it's Othard, the same continent that Doma, the Azim Steppe, and Valnain are on. The world isn't named Ivalice, either—it's somewhat amusingly named Hydaelyn.

So... Ivalice isn't Ivalice. Hell, half the Viera are from the Skatay Range, and last I checked that's not from Ivalice at all.

So what Im getting here is, maybe Ivalice was a mistake rofl

[Melichoir]

You're right, I don't get it, what does a timeline change? If its in Ivalice, its stilll Ivalice. Nothing changes. Unless something IN the timelane changes, which in canon has not happened.
I think you should go from timeline, to setting, or Universe. Maybe then your argument would work better, because it would make more sense to argue Ivalice in a different universe. But remember we went to a different world entirely, and things are still the same with Viera...so far

Think of it this way: The history of the US isnt the history of the one we live and breath if the US came into existence before Britain was a country. The order which events take place affects how things work down stream of them. If you are talking about the lore of Ivalice specific to FFXII, it happens in a certain order. If the 'history' of ivalice happens in a different order in FFXIV, it is not the same Ivalice as 12, and should be expected that some elements of the lore are not the same. If you quote Lore from a game where the lore of that game ISNT the identical lore (as in the world of FFXIV takes place in FFXII's future), then quoting that lore is pretty damn moot as a talking point.

What you are quoting isnt lore. Youre quoting a concept of what viera should be based on lore from another game. But the key sticking point is FFXIV doesnt have to, and shouldnt, adhere to lore from anotehr game because teh lore from 12 doesnt fit within 14 because concepts and ideas that establish the 'rules' of the FFXIV's world are not consistent with 12s.

The Viera don't have different history. So theres no issue other then people just want it changed cause they want Male Viera.

As I said, they dont have a different history cause they copy/pasted FFXII's lore into XIV. It's not cause it was carefully crafted and designed to be this way, it was literally "Oh Viera from 12, well here we are in 14 with them cause nostalgia from another FF title and meta design reasons." Even when they handle homages to previous FF titles, they are not 100% copy pastes. They are altered to fit within FFXIV to some extent cohesively. The lore surrounding Viera does not do this.

Why is it wrong if they treat the Viera the same and keep their lore consistent, especially if they are the ONLY playable race that does this? Like legit, why is Viera so special on this when this is the way its always been for them.

Because it doesnt fit within 14. That the problem. If the lore was remodeled to give a reason why they are the way they are and the concepts are consistent, it woudl be fine. But they didnt do this. And what I mean by consistent is that Viera get the same kind of treatments lore wise as other races. In ShB, if the background cultures of all the races are different between the first and the source, viera should also be the same.

I guess it would be interesting if they were different on the 1st, maybe we could have at least seen a Male over there, but then we all know that if we see them but cant play them the uproar would be just as bad but not worse, especially if we got Female Hrothgar.

Yes, this is correct. And I can understand that from a design stand point. In fact this is exactly the go to real reason why you only see female Viera and Male Hrothgar. Its because Meta design choices made it so, not because of carefully crafted narratives or lore. The lore that is in game currently is more like a stop gap - something they pushed in cause its all they had to explain things. Not because it was optimal or fit. Specifically in this case, lore was downstream from design by a long shot. And thats the problem.

The most Im getting here is maybe they should have stayed on course and not put in Viera, (since apparently that was the plan) because their lore and how they function seem to conflict with the playerbase so strongly. Like the world can function with them just fine, but its the playerbase thats struggling with it.
Idk. lol

It is literally a situation of "Its fine as long as you dont htink about it." And I dont mean like trying to give a detailed scientific explaination for how a person can create a fireball or something. It's literally basic concepts of believable civilizations fall apart immediately with even a small bit of thought. As I pointed out earlier, The world is on the verge of annihilation and absolutely no male viera thought "Damn, maybe I should go to the Chrystarium or Eulmore and see if I can find a solution for my people." Not a single one. Female Vieras seem fine with this happening, but not one male viera looked at the extinction of their people and thought maybe the customs of their people were kind of a hindrance?

Hell male vieras dont even show up when you venture deep into Viera territory on the first. The females show up to engage you. What happened to the males protecting things?


Every race and sex has agency to make decisions that would make them outliers....except male viera, cause lore. The lore worked fine in a more contained experience of 12, but it does not fit with how 14 operates. The very least is they needed to come up with new lore reasons why Viera males arent around.

[TheMightyMollusk]

So.....Ivalice doesn't have to stay consistent, but the Viera do? I don't get it.

[Crushnight]

If there is anyone with the Final Fantasy XII Scenario Ultimania mind doing a rough translation of Page 88(ik long shot but hey ho Japan exclusive item and I don't know Japanese) just to see what that says wiki just says that males and females live separately which can mean anything from villages to solo(the former would mean FFXIV Viera directly contradict Ivalice Viera lore, while the latter supports it).


I'm 100% with Melichoir on the First Viis are hindered by being beholden to Viera lore. It outright makes them look dumb, in game NPC quest straight up says they could count the number of male Viis left on their hands so 10 or less, your race is on the brink of extinction and you are having the males on the front lines (still in 5.3) rather than trying to protect them and having the males be more village focused with the more plentiful females on the front lines.

Humour me, if the human race wad in that scenario of being on the brink of extinction with 10 males left and we're fighting something that corrupts you on touch if it doesn't outright kill you, would you have those 10 males on the front lines even if your culture demanded it?

I wouldn't I would think it was an extremely stupid idea and that those 10 males are better served being guarded so that there was a better chance to prevent extinction.

This idea is even more stupid when the Viis were still trying to uphold their duty to the last Ronkan emperor, they would rather risk extinction than try to fulfil their duty, a duty they have been hellbent on doing for centuries, it is contradictory, this is why Viera lore is stupid to keep consistent in a world that cannot support it.


Last note but just want to say on this very very very big IF male Viera are added would you still use they must be beholden to Ivalice lore when the only difference between them would be you could see what a male Viera looks like(no other lore would be changed it straight up be oh I can see them now their race lore remains unchanged)?

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

So.....Ivalice doesn't have to stay consistent, but the Viera do? I don't get it.

What changes about Ivalice and why does it effect Viera as a whole? Thats what Im trying to understand.

[Melichoir]

The issue that we keep illustrating is that using the FFXII lore as the reason why we should never see male viera in FFXIV, that this doesnt work within the context of FFXIV world building and pre-existing lore. It doesnt make sense because that lore is from a different title with different rules, history, backgrounds, etc that were crafted to fit together narratively.

Just because they paid homage doesnt mean that its the same Ivalice, and therefore the same cultural norms and expectations of the Viera. If they alter Ivalice lore (even order of events or what did and didnt happen), then its not the same Ivalice from 12, and it is reasonable to expect lore for Viera to differ as well. Which should be the case, but because Meta design reasons that we all know about, the Viera lore is a copy/paste from 12 despite previous world building, and that lore thats lifted from 12 does not fit within 14 seemlessly and causes a whole bunch of consistency issues.

The most immediate example right now is how Viera on the first have the exact same cultural setup as those on the source. This is inconsistent with everything else, but is done so because of meta reasons with the copy/pasted lore of 12 as the reason. And speaking frank, when it comes to narrative and story, this is a bad thing. It makes them stick out like a sore thumb compared to other races. Some of this is only saved because we spend so little time on the source this xpac, but as soon as we spend more time doing things on the source, its going to get more apparent.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

The issue that we keep illustrating is that using the FFXII lore as the reason why we should never see male viera in FFXIV, that this doesnt work within the context of FFXIV world building and pre-existing lore. It doesnt make sense because that lore is from a different title with different rules, history, backgrounds, etc that were crafted to fit together narratively.

Just because they paid homage doesnt mean that its the same Ivalice, and therefore the same cultural norms and expectations of the Viera. If they alter Ivalice lore (even order of events or what did and didnt happen), then its not the same Ivalice from 12, and it is reasonable to expect lore for Viera to differ as well. Which should be the case, but because Meta design reasons that we all know about, the Viera lore is a copy/paste from 12 despite previous world building, and that lore thats lifted from 12 does not fit within 14 seemlessly and causes a whole bunch of consistency issues.

The most immediate example right now is how Viera on the first have the exact same cultural setup as those on the source. This is inconsistent with everything else, but is done so because of meta reasons with the copy/pasted lore of 12 as the reason. And speaking frank, when it comes to narrative and story, this is a bad thing. It makes them stick out like a sore thumb compared to other races. Some of this is only saved because we spend so little time on the source this xpac, but as soon as we spend more time doing things on the source, its going to get more apparent.

It works just fine, Viera can exist the exact same way they have in their Ivalice-Oriented games and still function in XIV or even in other FF games should they ever be used again outside of Ivalice games. There is no issue other then people not being able to accept it. My argument isn't that we Can't Have male Viera, but if the Viera as a playable race stay Gender-locked, its no loss other then to people who hate-gender locks and just simply want to see Male Viera.
Everything would work and function just fine in all honesty, there is no damage should we not get them.

The Viera lore, culture and whatnot wouldn't just simply change because of a different timeline. What consistency is getting muddy because Viera stay the same? Unless something literally happens that change Viera as a whole, then nothing would change. There are cultures IRL today that are still the same, Maybe a few things are different, (technology for example) but the core of their culture and what they believe in is still the same, and its still practiced. Just because its 2020 or whatever year, doesn't mean that all just changes and Cultural norms cease.

Yeah, they stick out like a sore thumb because they are very different then the other Races. They always stuck out, being in an MMO doesn't make them stick out anymore then they already did by concept alone in how they function. Im not getting your point here, im especially lost on your Consistency argument here, because your saying the Viera remain consistent, but that is an inconsistency.....like Im sorry but..wat?

[Kazran]

Alright if they stay consistent to the established Ivalice Lore then what is the validity of the 'Lore' keeping Viera males forever in the forest.

Why has no Male ever tried to leave the forest.
Why from birth to death has not a single Male has ever deviated from this at all?
Not in the entire time since the sundering?
Why do they not have the freewill to choose?
Who or what is taking their freewill away?
Isn't it bad to take someone's free will away?
Are male Viera okay? Do they need rescue?


Every member of a populace conforming exactly to the culture is more unbelievable then They never leave cus reasons!

We are the WoL we are the exception to every rule, breaking the limits of whats possible, etc.

FF has always been remixing, recycling and reimagining. Why are Viera the one immutable exception to this. Even 14remixed the original FF11 races.

[wereotter]

Are make Viera okay? Do they need rescue?

Me to male viera : Do you need help? cough twice if you need help.

[Melichoir]

It works just fine, Viera can exist the exact same way they have in their Ivalice-Oriented games and still function in XIV or even in other FF games should they ever be used again outside of Ivalice games. There is no issue other then people not being able to accept it. My argument isn't that we Can't Have male Viera, but if the Viera as a playable race stay Gender-locked, its no loss other then to people who hate-gender locks and just simply want to see Male Viera.
Everything would work and function just fine in all honesty, there is no damage should we not get them.

Ok. Ive already given a few direct examples why the lore doesnt work that well within FFXIV. Rather than address those points and provide counter points, your argument is "Nah it works fine cause I say so, and people who cant accept the viera lore being copy/pasted are just people who dont want to accept it."

Yes, people wanted male viera and using the lore from FFXII doesnt cut it as an in world reason why theyre not present anywhere in FFXIV because that lore does not fit within the context of FFXIV. People understand the meta reason for why no Male Viera, and that does suck. People can have their opinions about the meta reasoning. But using the lore from another FF title dropped into this one is not a good in game lore reason. It is screwy and is an inconsistency that hurts the overall narrative and world building. It is lazy or inept, and we all know the caliber of writing the devs have, so they couldve easily come up with better reasoning, or at the least tailored the lore to fit more within FFXIV specifically.

This is especially egregious, IMO, because people keep quoting "Well FFXII didnt have male Viera, so that is the how it must be for 14" as solid reasoning for all this, completely ignoring the true meta reason. Beyond that, there is no real 'further' damage at this time if we arent to get them. Except when we deal more with the Viera in future content (if we do at all), where the lore becomes more and more glaringly out of place in FFXIV.

The Viera lore, culture and whatnot wouldn't just simply change because of a different timeline. What consistency is getting muddy because Viera stay the same? Unless something literally happens that change Viera as a whole, then nothing would change. There are cultures IRL today that are still the same, Maybe a few things are different, (technology for example) but the core of their culture and what they believe in is still the same, and its still practiced. Just because its 2020 or whatever year, doesn't mean that all just changes and Cultural norms cease.

What cultures exist today are byproducts of decisions and events of their past. If you alter that history, the present most likely alters with it. Imagine how much different 'american' history would be if someone like Hamilton never wrote the federalist papers with Madison and Jay. Imagine how different Europe wouldve been if Constantine I did not decree christianity legal within the Roman Empire. Small changes in history, even innocuous ones, can alter events down stream of them quite severely. There is no reason to beleive that things would play out exactly the same if you altered things in the past. If you change Ivalice, everything down stream of that changes with it in some capacity. Sure, it is possible the changes are minor. But that is doubtful.

Yeah, they stick out like a sore thumb because they are very different then the other Races. They always stuck out, being in an MMO doesn't make them stick out anymore then they already did by concept alone in how they function. Im not getting your point here, im especially lost on your Consistency argument here, because your saying the Viera remain consistent, but that is an inconsistency.....like Im sorry but..wat?

They worked in FFXII cause world building allowed for it. The overall context of things and how they fit into that. They stuck out here because they do not fit within the overall context and lore of FFXIV.

My consistency issue is why do they not change culturally between the source and the first, when every other race does. Every other race has a different background, culture, lore, etc between the first and the source. There is no Allag Empire on the first. There was no Uldah. There was no Gridania. The history of what happens on the first is different than that of the source, and as a result the cultures are vastly different between the people of the first and source.

Everyone is like this...except Viera. For some reason, Viera's culture is damn near identical on the first as it is on the source. This aspect where Viera culture is identical on two separate worlds with two separate histories that are vastly different and as a result cause everyone else to have different cultural norms is what is INCONSISTENT within the FFXIV overall narrative. If you want to say we dont see male viera on the source cause Ivalice, Ok. But then how come we dont see them on the first? There was no Ivalice there. You could say theyre hiding, but that doesnt work as Fanow is the most fortified location from Sin Eaters in RakTika. That would be where you would hide the remaining few if that was the goal. And btw, were now past the Sin Eater threat broadly, so why are they still absent?

There is no reason for the Viera on the first to have the same cultural norms as the source. Theyre histories are vastly different. There is no Ivalice on the First. Every other race has been given a new history and backstory on the first, but Viera dont. This is the inconsistency. Why are the Viera so different Lore wise from everyone else. Everyone gets changed, but viera is pretty much the same on both the first and source.

We know why for meta reasons, but the "FFXII Lore" doesnt cut it here. It doesnt fit within FFXIV.