Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[CrispyUnicycle]

Oh, well...

I've had my fill of suggesting what they should look like. I'm not getting involved in that again.

i agree, it’s nothing but a headache

let’s talk about bangaa instead

[Theodric]

As an aside, I admittedly don't know a whole lot about the game itself but...apparently PSO2 is getting something along the lines of the 1.0 ---> 2.0 treatment:

Source: https://www.pcgamer.com/phantasy-sta...in-the-series/

Why am I bringing it up here? Well, I thought it'd be interesting to note given that FFXIV is held back in many regards, especially in regards to the dated character models, excessive menus and various 'limitations' that make certain parts of the game difficult to update.

Recent interviews suggest that the intention is for FFXIV to continue to go on for quite a while, though I do wonder if that means another major revamp of the game as a whole somewhere down the line. If nothing else? Maybe the healthy competition from upcoming and existing MMO's will encourage the missing genders, character model upgrades and character customisation updates to be seen as a higher priority.

[Lauront]

I've heard it said they tend to target experienced hires, rather than training up new staff - with the exception of the battle design team where MMO-specialised talent is so scarce in Japan that they're forced to do that as it is the only option. If they can't find enough experienced hires at a wage they're happy to pay, maybe they can focus on training up staff to meet their requirements as a longer term investment. The game does need a new coat of paint and quite a bit more besides.

As an aside, I admittedly don't know a whole lot about the game itself but...apparently PSO2 is getting something along the lines of the 1.0 ---> 2.0 treatment:

Source: https://www.pcgamer.com/phantasy-sta...in-the-series/

Why am I bringing it up here? Well, I thought it'd be interesting to note given that FFXIV is held back in many regards, especially in regards to the dated character models, excessive menus and various 'limitations' that make certain parts of the game difficult to update.

Recent interviews suggest that the intention is for FFXIV to continue to go on for quite a while, though I do wonder if that means another major revamp of the game as a whole somewhere down the line. If nothing else? Maybe the healthy competition from upcoming and existing MMO's will encourage the missing genders, character model upgrades and character customisation updates to be seen as a higher priority.

It's an encouraging example, at the least. There's quite a few promising MMOs on the horizon, but I'll reserve judgement on that until we see how they actually perform. Maybe it'll push SE to be more ambitious, particularly if they really do want the game to continue for as long as Yoshi says they do. Apparently something "huge" is in the works but what that might be is anyone's guess.

[Amnmaat]

Quality and time are the issues, not the cost; as he said "you can't simply just throw money." What they'd need to do is find a few more 3D artists that are on the level of their current 3D artists, that would only happen if they can steal a few of them from other japanese game development companies. Since I don't see that happening I don't see male Viera happening. I just don't know how they'll be able to sell the next expansion at the same time that they tell us they can't add male Viera and to understand without something else to soften the blow; character creator upgrade, glamour system upgrade, job system upgrade, Fates system upgrade. They have to upgrade or introduce new systems to really make us feel like they're doing more than the bare minimum, specially with the hard stab that comes from an outright rejection of the missing genders. While he might say "we might add them in future expansions," that will ring really hollow, the game will be severely aged in terms of its popularity. Theme parks are something we outgrow when it's the same playground with different colors.

As an aside, I admittedly don't know a whole lot about the game itself but...apparently PSO2 is getting something along the lines of the 1.0 ---> 2.0 treatment:

Source: https://www.pcgamer.com/phantasy-sta...in-the-series/

Why am I bringing it up here? Well, I thought it'd be interesting to note given that FFXIV is held back in many regards, especially in regards to the dated character models, excessive menus and various 'limitations' that make certain parts of the game difficult to update.

Recent interviews suggest that the intention is for FFXIV to continue to go on for quite a while, though I do wonder if that means another major revamp of the game as a whole somewhere down the line. If nothing else? Maybe the healthy competition from upcoming and existing MMO's will encourage the missing genders, character model upgrades and character customisation updates to be seen as a higher priority.

That's great news. This is the kind of stuff that can hack away at Square enix and their complacency to do the bare minimum with a new a coat of paint. I always had my eye on PSO, hell I played the hell out of PSO back in 2001-2002 on the Dreamcast and then later on Gamecube. If it gets a great 1.0-2.0 treatment I'll definitely try it out.

[BadLala]

"you can't simply just throw money." I think some are not native English speakers and think that if it doesn't include money, then it's not a cost. So I'll just leave one of the definitions of cost from Merriam-Webster here.

Definition of cost: 2- loss or penalty incurred especially in gaining something (the cost of lives during war).

Degraded quality and lost development time are the cost of gaining more playable races. You can even still tie this back to money if it causes you to lose players.

[BadLala]

Wouldnt this imply that there was an issue with genderlocking - a demand for something people wanted and genderlocking runs counter to that demand?

Yeah, I can see that now. From the interview WhiteArchmage shared, it shows he did see an issue with missing genders back then. But it doesn’t seem like he considered it to be a massive issue that he wouldn’t ever do or promised not to do as some make it to be. It’s more like other undesirable decisions they have to make based on the constraints they have (like delaying the release of some content).

What they did is reveal female viera, let fan speculation run wild with the use previously established examples of M Miqote and F Roe, and people got super hyped for Male Viera - something that wouldve been a first and in some demand. Only to pull the rug out by saying "Nah check out Hrothgars". It was kind of a wtf moment. they shouldve just stuck with one or the other cause this middle ground leaves a lot of people disappointed and wanting. Particularly considering the issues with customization on both viera and Hrothgar. It was a misstep.

That’s what they did wrong and deserve the backlash (not the homophobic stuff) they got. I even remember reading a Mr. Happy interview where he asked Yoshida about male Viera and he said “the lore explains it and oh, we have Tokyo Fanfest coming soon” (something along those lines IIRC lol). It would have been much less impactful if they said everything upfront and not let our hopes build up to be suddenly crushed at Fanfest. But I'm guessing they didn't wanna ruin the Hrothgar revel. At least they acknowledged that it was a mistake on how they handled it.

In fact, it actually mightve been much better, PR wise, to intro Hrothgar First, then Female Viera.

That would have been much better imo than how they’ve done it. But as WhiteArchmage linked, there are conflicting stories on which race was done first. They probably decided to work on Hrothgar, then decided to add Viera. But the actual modeling started on Viera first in 4.2 rather than Hrothgar. So it might not have been possible to show Hrothgar first. But that’s my assumption.

But I’m curious on how everyone here would react if Hrothgar was shown first and announced to be male only and another female race would be announced later.

[Theodric]

As I see it, they took a gamble and underestimated the amount of people who were interested in playing as a male Viera and overestimated the amount of people who were interested in playing a beast race.

At the moment, male Hrothgar are among the least played race/gender combination in the game. I've always felt as though the push for a beast race in this game was more about people wanting to see one added to the game rather than because they wanted to play one themselves. In other words, a lot of the people pushing for Viera to be added fully intended to play one, whereas many of those pushing for a beast race weren't nearly as committed.

What's done is done, though. I only hope we see the missing genders added to the game and get a meaningful revamp of the character customisation for every race/gender combination in the game.

It's a lot of work, though it's the best way to ensure that the majority of players are happy. It'll also encourage people to try out different playable races if some of the glaring issues/limitations are fixed.

[Alleo]

As I see it, they took a gamble and underestimated the amount of people who were interested in playing as a male Viera and overestimated the amount of people who were interested in playing a beast race.

At the moment, male Hrothgar are among the least played race/gender combination in the game. I've always felt as though the push for a beast race in this game was more about people wanting to see one added to the game rather than because they wanted to play one themselves. In other words, a lot of the people pushing for Viera to be added fully intended to play one, whereas many of those pushing for a beast race weren't nearly as committed.

I mean even on the forum it was pretty clear that the old Viera threads always gotten more posts and discussion than any thread about wanting a beast race. So if SE really believed that a big amount of players would play a beast race then its on them, because its quite clear imo that it would always just be a minority. Which is why I who wanted to play a beastlike female was quite fine if we got just a complete Viera race.

Another problem is of course that on one side you have a race that already existed in other FF games (the viera) which means that at least for the females there were clear indicators on what to expect. This is not the case for a beast race. I for example would have loved to get a lupin race. Others wanted the Ronso from another FF. And many more might have liked other forms. So even if one wanted a beast race it could simply be that the Hrothgar are not of their taste, so its understandable why they are not played. (They are using the body proportions of the other least played race after all) Heck I want them to include the female versions of the Hrothgar but I am not sure if I would play one. I still need to like the look of a race to play it after all.

In the end I remember that quite a few people posted that it would be better to have a beast race for more diversity instead of the viera that would fall into the human+animal parts of it...

[reivaxe]

I mean even on the forum it was pretty clear that the old Viera threads always gotten more posts and discussion than any thread about wanting a beast race. So if SE really believed that a big amount of players would play a beast race then its on them, because its quite clear imo that it would always just be a minority. Which is why I who wanted to play a beastlike female was quite fine if we got just a complete Viera race.

Another problem is of course that on one side you have a race that already existed in other FF games (the viera) which means that at least for the females there were clear indicators on what to expect. This is not the case for a beast race. I for example would have loved to get a lupin race. Others wanted the Ronso from another FF. And many more might have liked other forms. So even if one wanted a beast race it could simply be that the Hrothgar are not of their taste, so its understandable why they are not played. (They are using the body proportions of the other least played race after all) Heck I want them to include the female versions of the Hrothgar but I am not sure if I would play one. I still need to like the look of a race to play it after all.

In the end I remember that quite a few people posted that it would be better to have a beast race for more diversity instead of the viera that would fall into the human+animal parts of it...

The common misconception here is that they make new races to be "popular". That's not why you do it, you do new races to fill in gaps in the line up to give people more options to express themselves and make the game more inviting/ appealing to people who haven't jumped on board yet.

YP out right stated they didn't know how popular Hrothgar would be but wanted to make them for the health of the game. Like I've said ... new playable races post release don't seem to be a common thing in MMOs by large. After getting into the MMO scene with GW2 I've played and fallowed many and outside of WoW (Blizzard can add new races willy nilly because their game looks like trash that plays on toasters. Armor is often times just straight up textures on the base model) most MMOs don't bother with adding new races after release. GW2 at some point said they would never do it as it's too much work, I've yet to see ESO or PSO2 add new races, Tera and B&S don't and Tera panders to the Elin players by giving them every class plus unique ones. Wild Star was made to be a game that tried to be "Hardcore WoW" and they were the only non-WoW/ FF14 MMO I've seen do post release Races it in the past decade ... that game is a dead game now cause it was too hardcore focused so rip. (Also a game like BDO doesn't count, races are just skins for race and gender locked classes there. Wanna be a boy Elf in that game then ... hope you like Bows cause archer is the only class for them.)

If all they wanted was to push potions that could profit far more off just adding a 3rd Cat Girl Clan with new HQ faces and the same animations/ body or by making hybrid races that just slap on features from other races that would easily translate without much effort (cause how hard could it be to put Elezen ears on a meddie and call it a day? People would jump all over that ... or cat ears on a lala. I mean, it would likely be a lazy money grab if done that way that would destroy the racial identity to each race in the minds of the dev team but it would be "hella popular" no doubt).

As for Hrothgar they are nothing short of a success. They are more popular than the only other comparable buff race in the game and they're a male only race of furry people that can't change their hair, that's some strong limits on the already selective interest of "furry/ beast people".
People often times forget that FF14 had to add in a number of character models withe unique animations and faces and gear proportion post release. Boi cats turned out to be very popular ... Female Roe and Female highlanders also had to be added to the game and are the lease played pc choices (That's right, there's more active Hrothgar than thighlanders who were not in the base game. Hrothgar aren't really that far behind Male Highlanders).

All these choices have value and build a world of interesting characters and options so I'll never understand this concern about something not being ultra popular. Would this game be better off having no Roe or female Elezen/ Highlanders cause they're not as popular as Meddies/ Dragos / lalas and cats?

I don't know which 'universal' hair styles that modders have modded on Viera you are referring to, but the ones I've seen do not have those issues you describe; or so minimal that the same issues are seen on female Au ra. Clipping is like water in FFXIV, you will never eradicate it; live with it.

Sir, how dare you post a mod of a fat braid going through the 4th dimension to wrap around the viera's head through their ears and say that doesn't look like a hot mess? No part of the form-n-function hair style works on Viera, even the bangs don't make sense for their heads.
I could actually go into far more detail about that but I can tell it's not worth it if that's your first picture and your "gotcha" is come very small over-lapping hair horn stuff on dragos. :/

Like I said, YP claimed they would only get some of the the shared style, those that could work on them, at first before scrapping that and saying only unique ones. Yes, I think there are SOME hair styles that can easily work on them that other races have (the legend hair for example as I said, It's basically like the really short Viera hair. Make it rain might be another one iirc. Great lengths is a hard no though, that looks like trash). There's no tech reason why "all" can't work, it's a design issue ... as in it would look bad. Much like how cats don't have all the same hair that Lalas/ humans/ elezen and roe can have. It's cause some would just look flat out bad for a race with cat ears on that part of their head so they didn't give them those when they made shared hair a thing.

But now that shared hair is a thing? They make sure every new hair at least is something all can wear ... so there will never be hair drop that's something like the Skrillex hair that Cats can't have. If they made the few that could work on Viera work they would cause confusion and expectations that everything new should work and they likely don't want more constraints on what other races can have based on it looking like trash on a Viera, nor would they want more of this head gear whining where people act like they can't follow the pattern of what does and doesn't work.

I mean, what even IS the debate here? "We can't know why they decided to not give Viera old hair"? I already pointed at the fact that the devs only thought SOME of the old hair would be viable options for them and I can point to examples like the Skrillex hair to show that the devs are willing to exclude hair options for races that they think would not work ... and I can point to how every single new hair style after the sharing of hair are hairstyles that the devs feel can work on all races. If you don't agree and think the devs should be fine with the mess you posted because of some small horn clipping (and that the only reason they don't is cause of Hrothgar cause they're tots equals even though they're never tried that way) then IDK what to tell ya, that's a you problem.

[Amnmaat]

If all they wanted was to push potions that could profit far more off just adding a 3rd Cat Girl Clan with new HQ faces and the same animations/ body or by making hybrid races that just slap on features from other races that would easily translate without much effort (cause how hard could it be to put Elezen ears on a meddie and call it a day? People would jump all over that ... or cat ears on a lala. I mean, it would likely be a lazy money grab if done that way that would destroy the racial identity to each race in the minds of the dev team but it would be "hella popular" no doubt).

As for Hrothgar they are nothing short of a success. They are more popular than the only other comparable buff race in the game and they're a male only race of furry people that can't change their hair, that's some strong limits on the already selective interest of "furry/ beast people".
People often times forget that FF14 had to add in a number of character models withe unique animations and faces and gear proportion post release. Boi cats turned out to be very popular ... Female Roe and Female highlanders also had to be added to the game and are the lease played pc choices (That's right, there's more active Hrothgar than thighlanders who were not in the base game. Hrothgar aren't really that far behind Male Highlanders).

All these choices have value and build a world of interesting characters and options so I'll never understand this concern about something not being ultra popular. Would this game be better off having no Roe or female Elezen/ Highlanders cause they're not as popular as Meddies/ Dragos / lalas and cats?

Roegadyn added that aesthetic they wanted to add with Hrothgar



If I don't see the Hrothgar tail it's always hard to tell if I'm looking at a male Roegadyn or at a Hrothgar while running around the cities or in duties. An animal face wasn't a necessity to achieve that goal, male Roegadyn already achieved that semi-beastial aesthetic, in my opinion.