Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[BadLala]

Haha, so now you've moved from cost to time, yes, you realized your original argument is now 6 feet under.

Have you ever heard of the term "computational cost"? I'm really astonished that you didn't know that time in any process is cost. Also, are you intentionally twisting my words to build a strawman argument? I have never moved from cost to time since I already mentioned that cost includes time in my previous posts, which you just decided to ignore now since you can't seem to find anything to support your argument.

The cost IS the real problem. Cost includes everything from concept, development to QA and debugging and even time.

Furthermore, the data, player support, and the like is what pushes things like missing genders/new races through. Bangaa would never happen, as it doesn't have that. Again, this is the extra stuff. You will never see Bangaa in this game. The funny thing is you're slowly crossing the line to my side but you still pretend like adding missing genders and adding Baanga require the same level of "work"; one requires extra, one doesn't. Even in the simplest terms (3D art/design) Baanga would require more design considerations than the missing genders. I'll just say that you didn't understand what you were getting into and let you roll on by.

Also, I have never said that we're likely to see Bangaa over male Viera. And you never mentioned " the data, player support, and the like" as the extra stuff. Nor did anyone deny that these factors are there. But if you think these are the factors that make the design of a new race simpler than another, then you clearly have no idea how 3D modeling works nor the programming that goes into it. Au ra were added in heavenward simply because the dev team wanted them. Viera were obviously the race that had more demand in the poll, already known and liked by the players. Yet, Au ra were chosen because they wanted them to the first original race of FFXIV.

Edit: Just in case you forgot my point. The cost difference between adding a completely new race against adding male Viera and Female Hrothgar is minimal. Just because we already have female Viera and male Horthgar, doesn't magically make it significantly less than adding a new race.

1: So you're admitting to be a Liar. This wasn't stated, you put the words in his mouth and spoke on his behalf, saying something he never said. Congrats, I now dont trust a single thing you say. You have no proof of this, because you made it up.

I'm starting to see that now. So far everything he said hasn't been backed by any sources (still waiting on that statement about genderlocking, which I'm sure I won't see) and the source he used outright had no mention of the points he's stating.

[Amnmaat]

Have you ever heard of the term "computational cost"? I'm really astonished that you didn't know that time in any process is cost. Also, are you intentionally twisting my words to build a strawman argument? I have never moved from cost to time since I already mentioned that cost includes time in my previous posts, which you just decided to ignore now since you can't seem to find anything to support your argument.

This is how you're sounding

Just because a coconut is the product of a tree doesn't make the coconut a tree.

Also, I have never said that we're likely to see Bangaa over male Viera. And you never mentioned " the data, player support, and the like" as the extra stuff. Nor did anyone deny that these factors are there. But if you think these are the factors that make the design of a new race simpler than another, then you clearly have no idea how 3D modeling works nor the programming that goes into it. Au ra were added in heavenward simply because the dev team wanted them. Viera were obviously the race that had more demand in the poll, already known and liked by the players. Yet, Au ra were chosen because they wanted them to the first original race of FFXIV.

Edit: Just in case you forgot my point. The cost difference between adding a completely new race against adding male Viera and Female Hrothgar is minimal. Just because we already have female Viera and male Horthgar, doesn't magically make it significantly less than adding a new race.

Not true, that's what I've been saying since the beginning, clearly you're only reading what you want to read.

I'm starting to see that now. So far everything he said hasn't been backed by any sources (still waiting on that statement about genderlocking, which I'm sure I won't see) and the source he used outright had no mention of the points he's stating.

My source is YoshiP himself, what's yours?

1: So you're admitting to be a Liar. This wasn't stated, you put the words in his mouth and spoke on his behalf, saying something he never said. Congrats, I now dont trust a single thing you say. You have no proof of this, because you made it up.
Again, the same amount of work would go into making the missing Genders, as it would making a new race altogether. The Process is still the same. If they Can make the Missing Genders, then there is a Chance, even at 0.0001% that they could make another new race if they wanted to.
They never outright said no...just that these 2 are "Possibly" the last Races they will make. And they did both Viera and Hrothgar, because it "Might" be their last chance.

Show me where he said he's looking to the possibility of adding races in the future? On the other hand, he said that because of all work required there might not be any new races in the future.
Compare that to the fact that if he finds a way around QA, debugging, and other issues he'll add the missing genders.

Those are two very different approaches.

2: The Marketing Research analytic BS you keep talking about stated that Viera, more clans for existing races, or Hybrid Races were popular ideas. He didnt do them, he did the Au-Ra instead. Which means he and his team can do what they want and have more power then you seem to wanna think they have.
This isn't about adding Bangaa instead of the missing genders. The very clear point is: The same amount of effort goes into making them. So they COULD make a new race the same as Missing genders. This isn't some Corporate speak you love to run back to, this is a simple fact of Development.

No no no, you're not the one who decides what this is about, the starting point of this debate was about adding Bangaa, to which I said that would never happen. So no, you don't move the goalpost to wherever you want to move it to.
On the point of marketing, data analysis, and the extra work required; yes, this is required. You as the producer don't run the organization by yourself, you would have to create a presentation, backed up by data and tangible sources to prove to the various departments and personal why Bangaa should be a feature in the next expansion. I don't know if you work at a farm or you flip burgers, but this is how organizations are ran.

3: What poll are you reading? Reptilian beastmen placed #4 for Japan, Reptilian demi-beastmen is #5 for Japan
Top 3 was Mammalian demi-beastmen, or Viera as an example, which placed #2
Looking at the poll more and more, the decision for Au-Ra makes less sense, if going by this Data. If they were truly making something based off this data, then Races of mixed heritage was #1 across the board with all 5 countries listed. So why not Viera? It was listed higher then an idea like Au-ra.
Because YoshiP and team decided it.

Together, reptilian race scored barely below mammillian (Viera)
The other choices like mixed race and extra clans have been explained by the devs as "we get into the issue of why add mixed races and the lore you would have to create for that, when we could instead add a new race." It's been well documented why hybrid races and extra clans have design flaws and are an issue in terms of new features to the game. You'd run into a lot of issues like how they chose a hybrid race I don't like or that is weird (lalafel + Roegadyn); they'd have to introduce a hybrid race for all races or a clan for all races to really fulfill those 2 requests.

That really only leaves mamillian and reptilian (for which they created 2 options, 1 bestman and 1 demi human); the "reptilian" results were slightly below mammillian. Also notice how they listed Reptilian twice? He was most likely fishing for what he wanted; present this to marketing and CEOs and they'd just go "hmm they voted a lot for reptilian" when you put them together. His data backed up what he wanted.

He also cited players support as the reason that they decided to add the missing Miqo'te and Roegadyn genders. You can't just add whatever you want, you have to back up what you want to add through data and support from the fanbase.

So you say races are not one-dimensional, and then continuously talk about wanting male viera to be this one-dimensional "hero and protector". What are you even debating here anymore (aside from this back and forth nonsensical development back and forth you two are having, in my opinion)?

Hero and protector are two different qualities. A hero is one who actively seeks to free a person or many people; a Thancred type of person. A protector is someone who patrols his environment so that others don't harm his people; this is passive, you're not looking to go free anyone, you're there defensively to protect.

That's unfortunate, since they are envisioned to have a miqo'te like face, and elezen body. As many like to say from time to time in here.

Elezen body, my statement stands. I don't see male Viera looking all young like male Miqo'te, AKA bishounen. Moreover, I don't expect feminine faces when you consider the environment and the circumstances of how male Viera live. His statement could be referring to Miqo'te's face 4.

[SturmChurro]

Hero and protector are two different qualities. A hero is one who actively seeks to free a person or many people; a Thancred type of person. A protector is someone who patrols his environment so that others don't harm his people; this is passive, you're not looking to go free anyone, you're there defensively to protect.


Elezen body, my statement stands. I don't see male Viera looking all young like male Miqo'te, AKA bishounen. Moreover, I don't expect feminine faces when you consider the environment and the circumstances of how male Viera live. His statement could be referring to Miqo'te's face 4.

I definitely think you are doing a me, and just trying to argue to argue at this point. I dig it. A "hero" can have many different aspects and being a "protector" is one of them. Complete nonargument.

Hero

a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities.

Protector

a person or thing that protects someone or something.

You could argue, that perhaps a protector doesn't have to be a hero, but they can also be one and the same. The real question is, what do you envision a hero that isn't a protector to look like, or a protector that isn't a hero? How would these qualities translate into the finished product of male viera? What differentiates these qualities to you into a concept for the look of a race? Are they not synonymous? When does the hero become the villain, or the protector the oppressor - and how does this translate into concept art?

You should expect feminine, younger or a 'boyish" face (for males), they already did so with female viera. It's almost a trend to have like an ugly old man face, and or a young boyish face.

[Amnmaat]

I definitely think you are doing a me, and just trying to argue to argue at this point. I dig it. A "hero" can have many different aspects and being a "protector" is one of them. Complete nonargument.
Hero
Protector

You could argue, that perhaps a protector doesn't have to be a hero, but they can also be one and the same. The real question is, what do you envision a hero that isn't a protector to look like, or a protector that isn't a hero? How would these qualities translate into the finished product of male viera? What differentiates these qualities to you into a concept for the look of a race? Are they not synonymous? When does the hero become the villain, or the protector the oppressor?

Your own description (without a source) don't state the same thing. Estenien striking down the cannon in Stormblood (you know which one) is a hero; Merlwyb's guard (Mistbeard) is a protector.

You should expect feminine, younger or a 'boyish" face (for males), they already did so with female viera. It's almost a trend to have like an ugly old man face, and or a young boyish face.

The sexes are different by nature. Men will almost always "out-age" their women facially (well until they hit their downward slide in the 30s). Female Roegadyn look younger than male Roegadyn, the same is true of every race including female Miqo'te. XIV just presents an unknown factor as to what the ratio of young to old faces will be like. From what I remember male Elezen's faces tend to lean to mature, as opposed to young, and we know Viera are closer to Elezen than to any race; female Elezen look to be about the same age in how they look. Out of the top of my head I remember male Miqo'te being split in half in terms young and mature.

[SturmChurro]

Your own description (without a source) don't state the same thing. Estenien striking down the cannon in Stormblood (you know which one) is a hero; Merlwyb's guard (Mistbeard) is a protector.


The sexes are different by nature. Men will almost always "out-age" their women facially (well until they hit their downward slide in the 30s). Female Roegadyn look younger than male Roegadyn, the same is true of every race including female Miqo'te. XIV just presents an unknown factor as to what the ratio of young to old faces will be like. From what I remember male Elezen's faces tend to lean to mature, as opposed to young, and we know Viera are closer to Elezen than to any race; female Elezen look to be about the same age in how they look. Out of the top of my head I remember male Miqo'te being split in half in terms young and mature.

The source is me copy and pasting each word into google. You are, again, seeming to ignore bits of what I have already posted. You seem to want to argue, yet you don't.

I don't care about your biological talk, for that matter it doesn't even actually mean anything for many Japanese game design or animated media. Have you seen lalafell, the miqo'te you always call boyish, or even midlanders? SE will choose a design they like and that's that. Old, young, it does not matter - only the design they have envisioned matters. They could look all old, or all young, some old, some young and that would be the design they go with. Male elezen have both and old man face, and a young boyish face. Female elezen actually only have two faces total - the least amount of customization options for faces in the game. Male miqo'te also have a younger, and older face. For that matter they just reuse bodies, so I don't know what you are trying to dispute. When they refer to male miqo'te face and elezen body, that just means that they are envisioned to look closest to probably like a tall male miqo'te. That doesn't necessarily mean they are going to look rugged or however you think a "hero and protector" should look like. You seem to be continuously trying to push this one-dimensional idea of how they should look, and claiming you somehow aren't. Besides there should be variance in their faces, young, old, whatever. It's for the players to decide. Your rugged, hero protectors will be dressed up in all manner of outfits that spit in the face of that idea.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

1: Show me where he said he's looking to the possibility of adding races in the future? On the other hand, he said that because of all work required there might not be any new races in the future.
Compare that to the fact that if he finds a way around QA, debugging, and other issues he'll add the missing genders.
Those are two very different approaches.

2: No no no, you're not the one who decides what this is about, the starting point of this debate was about adding Bangaa, to which I said that would never happen. So no, you don't move the goalpost to wherever you want to move it to.
On the point of marketing, data analysis, and the extra work required; yes, this is required. You as the producer don't run the organization by yourself, you would have to create a presentation, backed up by data and tangible sources to prove to the various departments and personal why Bangaa should be a feature in the next expansion. I don't know if you work at a farm or you flip burgers, but this is how organizations are ran.

3:Together, reptilian race scored barely below mammillian (Viera)
The other choices like mixed race and extra clans have been explained by the devs as "we get into the issue of why add mixed races and the lore you would have to create for that, when we could instead add a new race." It's been well documented why hybrid races and extra clans have design flaws and are an issue in terms of new features to the game. You'd run into a lot of issues like how they chose a hybrid race I don't like or that is weird (lalafel + Roegadyn); they'd have to introduce a hybrid race for all races or a clan for all races to really fulfill those 2 requests.

That really only leaves mamillian and reptilian (for which they created 2 options, 1 bestman and 1 demi human); the "reptilian" results were slightly below mammillian. Also notice how they listed Reptilian twice? He was most likely fishing for what he wanted; present this to marketing and CEOs and they'd just go "hmm they voted a lot for reptilian" when you put them together. His data backed up what he wanted.

He also cited players support as the reason that they decided to add the missing Miqo'te and Roegadyn genders. You can't just add whatever you want, you have to back up what you want to add through data and support from the fanbase.

I question your reading comprehension. Or are you once again just putting words into peoples mouths so you can try to sneak a win into your arguments?
I didn't say anything about him "Looking into the possibility" I said that he said "This is "Likely" the last races. Which means he didn't outright say no to future playable races. Once again repeating myself, that the same amount of work goes into making a Separate Gender as it would making a new race. Its the same amount of work when developing a race or a gender for that race, the model, animations, emotes, etc. Im not gonna repeat this again, because if I have to, then you are purposefully ignoring it, and don't know how developing something works.
My argument was never about adding Bangaa over the Missing Genders, YOU want to make that the argument. And yes, if they wanted to, they could put in Bangaa, IF they had the means to do so. If the Hrothgar and Viera aren't in fact the last races.

This is my last post to you on this subject.
If you have anything to say about other subjects in the future, MAYBE Ill reply to you. But you've shown yourself to be untrustworthy, willing to misquote and create strawman arguments out of thin air. Im not dealing with somebody who will lie to win.

[SpiralMask]

guys we're arguing with one person's headcanons/projection as to the aesthetic design of a race (which i have shamefully contributed to already), let's just stop and get back to the thread topic for "male viera yea/nay support"

[BadLala]

You seem to want to argue, yet you don't.

Nah, he just wants to feel he won an internet argument. So he'll ignore what he can't respond to, strawman your arguments and outright lie. It became clearer when he never gave a source about his genderlocking claim and when he used Yoshida's response as a "source", even though it doesn't show any of his claims, but mentions the cost of development time.

[Amnmaat]

Nah, he just wants to feel he won an internet argument. So he'll ignore what he can't respond to, strawman your arguments and outright lie. It became clearer when he never gave a source about his genderlocking claim and when he used Yoshida's response as a "source", even though it doesn't show any of his claims, but mentions the cost of development time.

It's the in the first or second post of where this subject started. The burden that I didn't bring it up is on you, not me.

I am slightly amused and getting bored, but definitely not angry. Why I humored you before. At this point, there isn't much more to post pertaining to this idiotic argument than I already have. I don't have the post count left to continue playing these games.

I don't know what any of this has to do with character design. Again, we might want a specific look for male viera, but SE can make them look like whatever they want, whether we like it or not, whether it is what you perceive as "based on real life" or not. No, previous concept art isn't what the finished product will look like either, until it's actually released it's always subject to change.

Also, the statement of "hunan-like creatures in the game instead of made up creatures" is verifiably false, and you should know that. Another reason, I think this may just be baiting, and I am getting a taste of my own medicine.

1. Great attempt at masking your virulent anger, but that's clearly anger:

What the heck are you even talking about? Seriously? Are we even playing the same game? FFXIV based on real life? Ridiculous.

. No wonder none of your arguments have any counter arguments and just answer themselves and you don't realize it. Furthermore, you started this "idiotic" argument; might want to reflect on that.

2. Oh so nothing matters now? Typical "I lost the argument" concession.

3. Just because you say it doesn't make it "verifiably false." Art imitates real life, just the fact that you have human-like creatures proves this, but more factors add to this such as historical events, cultures, and even job designs.

I question your reading comprehension. Or are you once again just putting words into peoples mouths so you can try to sneak a win into your arguments?
I didn't say anything about him "Looking into the possibility" I said that he said "This is "Likely" the last races. Which means he didn't outright say no to future playable races. Once again repeating myself, that the same amount of work goes into making a Separate Gender as it would making a new race. Its the same amount of work when developing a race or a gender for that race, the model, animations, emotes, etc. Im not gonna repeat this again, because if I have to, then you are purposefully ignoring it, and don't know how developing something works.
My argument was never about adding Bangaa over the Missing Genders, YOU want to make that the argument. And yes, if they wanted to, they could put in Bangaa, IF they had the means to do so. If the Hrothgar and Viera aren't in fact the last races.

This is my last post to you on this subject.
If you have anything to say about other subjects in the future, MAYBE Ill reply to you. But you've shown yourself to be untrustworthy, willing to misquote and create strawman arguments out of thin air. Im not dealing with somebody who will lie to win.

1. It wouldn't be the same amount of work. All races but a few share the same models except the head. Bangaa would be its own model like male Roegadyn and Lalafels. I mean this is too easy, but I don't think you knew how bad your point in this argument was.
2. New race would still require the considerations I brought up. I'm the one who has to repeat himself; the work and time required to get the data, present the data, and get approval is much longer and strenuous than an existing race who's just missing genders.
3. You butt into my original statement which was about Bangaa, you don't get to change what it was about. That's not how things work.

[Tabbs]

You might not care for "biological" talk but art like video games, specifically FFXIV is based on real life; it's why we have human-like creatures in the game instead of made up creatures. Furthermore, it's also why every race in the game, except for Lalafel follows the older male to younger female structure.

3. Just because you say it doesn't make it "verifiably false." Art imitates real life, just the fact that you have human-like creatures proves this, but more factors add to this such as historical events, cultures, and even job designs.

Ignoring the stereotyping, you're only half right. "Art imitates life" is only literal in that we use it as a point of reference or as self-expression. It is otherwise subjective and debatable. A lot of art, for example, is depictions of what we *want to see* rather than what life *actually is*. It would be more accurate to say, in your case, that "art imitates the ideal of life" or that "life imitates art" as Oscar Wilde put it. You're taking a phrase rooted in the culture and history of the arts and applying it to your opinion of how someone should look based on your associations with a couple of words.

If you observe art movements throughout history, you'll see that we go through periods of idealizing life and then artists subsequently rejecting that in favor of realism or personal expression. Look at Dadaism. It was a direct response from artists of the time to patrons and critics telling them what art is "supposed to be". That the people need to be beautiful, that the landscapes need to be lush. It was an *offense* to depict the common man at work at various points in history, but real life wasn't pretty or romantic. People weren't all sculpted athletes and models. Look up "The Gleaners" -- The rich French (patrons, the Salon, critics, etc.) hated it for depicting a reality they didn't want to face. These things still happen today, frequently (and especially in games/visdev settings).

But like Churro said, SE can and will do pretty much whatever they want. Yeah, male Viera will probably be marginally taller than the women with potential to be marginally shorter, that's just the track record they've set. But after that? Who knows my guy.

Anyways sorry for rambling in the middle there, I love talking about art lol.

TLDR: "Art imitates life" is a cliche and overused phrase that isn't even necessarily true when so much art is based on ideals. Also stereotypes bad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯