Add ilv requirement please in ShB[Dev Request]

[Crushnight]

Too many insulting and trolling replies to quote, but the fact that the responses are all, "You don't know what you're talking about," instead of actually discussing and giving reasons why I'm wrong is telling. Look, outside of giving the big personal DPS jobs every buff in the book, DPS enmity just does not outpace tank enmity when the tank is being played correctly. I have seen this play out in groups way too many times to doubt it. If you look at BLM in particular, and you start in Umbral Ice (which you will for every single raid encounter), the most popular guide even says, point blank, that you do not need to use Diversion. So are the BLM theorycrafters also ignorant? Please.

Ultimately I—and hopefully many others—will take empirical experience and theorycrafters over the opinions of insult and troll-ready posters.

Remember to report rude posts, or else they'll stay and continue to stay and be rude to others. Other times it's just better to not react because that's how tensions rise and people really get to scratching each other beyond forum passive aggressiveness. I stay firm in my belief that Diversion is not necessary for dungeons. Because they are dungeons. For higher level dungeons- which is what this thread is all about as well as the focus n o t being on Savage, if your gear is up to par you wouldn't be taking enmity off the tank anyway unless they were out of tank stance and DPS-ing instead of tanking.

Feel free to continue to not using diversion your choice to do so, but you cannot just blame the tanks you have to blame yourself as well for when you take aggro because you are not doing everything you can to try to help the situation.

[Ilan]

Remember to report rude posts, or else they'll stay and continue to stay and be rude to others. Other times it's just better to not react because that's how tensions rise and people really get to scratching each other beyond forum passive aggressiveness. I stay firm in my belief that Diversion is not necessary for dungeons. Because they are dungeons. For higher level dungeons- which is what this thread is all about as well as the focus n o t being on Savage, if your gear is up to par you wouldn't be taking enmity off the tank anyway unless they were out of tank stance and DPS-ing instead of tanking.

There was nothing rude in it to tell people they are wrong and telling someone that he has no idea what he is talking about is not insulting. Your stuborn behaviour on the other hand is rude because you make your parties life harder just for your QoL and using diversion has nothing to do with savage!

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Remember to report rude posts, or else they'll stay and continue to stay and be rude to others. Other times it's just better to not react because that's how tensions rise and people really get to scratching each other beyond forum passive aggressiveness. I stay firm in my belief that Diversion is not necessary for dungeons. Because they are dungeons. For higher level dungeons- which is what this thread is all about as well as the focus n o t being on Savage, if your gear is up to par you wouldn't be taking enmity off the tank anyway unless they were out of tank stance and DPS-ing instead of tanking.

Funny how the game gives you an ability that isn't "necessary for dungeons" at level 20.

Flimsiest excuse for being lazy ever.

[Derio]

Too many insulting and trolling replies to quote, but the fact that the responses are all, "You don't know what you're talking about," instead of actually discussing and giving reasons why I'm wrong is telling. Look, outside of giving the big personal DPS jobs every buff in the book, DPS enmity just does not outpace tank enmity when the tank is being played correctly. I have seen this play out in groups way too many times to doubt it. If you look at BLM in particular, and you start in Umbral Ice (which you will for every single raid encounter), the most popular guide even says, point blank, that you do not need to use Diversion. So are the BLM theorycrafters also ignorant? Please.

Ultimately I—and hopefully many others—will take empirical experience and theorycrafters over the opinions of insult and troll-ready posters.

This is true however it is a group dps loss because the tank would need to use enmity generation combos.

However nobody really cares for min/max in a dungeon.

But when the tank has minimum ilvl and dps has maximum ilvl if the dps is not using enmity reducing cooldowns then no matter how hard the tank spams his/her aggro combo, the dps will then become the tank.

[HyoMinPark]

Too many insulting and trolling replies to quote, but the fact that the responses are all, "You don't know what you're talking about," instead of actually discussing and giving reasons why I'm wrong is telling.

I apologize. It’s hard to believe you actually know what you’re talking about with regards tank aggro managemant and correct play when you seem to have very little experience actually playing tanks (yet, you enjoy telling players who do tank to “maybe rethink tanking” if they lose aggro to DPS who refuse to manage it). Again, try to get some first before you talk about how big of a crutch Diversion is to a good tank, or what kind of play is “correct play” for a role you haven’t even touched.

Look, outside of giving the big personal DPS jobs every buff in the book, DPS enmity just does not outpace tank enmity when the tank is being played correctly.

And what is this “correctly”? Sitting in tank stance spamming an aggro combo? You still have not clarified this “correctly”.

Correct play involves all people in a party managing their own enmity—
—In 8-mans, tanks Shirk one another for aggro gains—I have taken Final Omega’s first tankbuster on BRD before because my static’s tanks were late on Shirks, before I even get to where Refresh is in my opener, because BRD has 100% unquelled aggro when it opens unless there’s a NIN to Smokescreen them.
—DPS rotate Diversion/Lucid/Refresh/Tacitician to make sure that their tank doesn’t have to go into tank stance (DPS loss on the tank), or use an aggro combo (also a DPS loss on the tank—enmity combos are the least potent for all tanks; even WAR’s Butcher’s combo is its weakest becuase it doesn’t build Beast Gauge as quickly with it compared to Storm’s Path, which means less Fell Cleaves).
—Healers do the same, because healer aggro is also a thing—if you disagree, I recommend you play WHM for a while in content that matters. Apparently, with the recent change to Assize, their enmity gain is even higher because of more frequent uses of it; and Assize does not have built in enmity reduction like what they added to some of WHM’s GCD heals.

Parts of this translate into 4-man content—DPS should actively manage their aggro so that they don’t rip mobs off the tank (or a boss, because that can also happen), and give the healer 2 targets to take care of instead of just one. It’s all about respecting your fellow party members.

I have seen this play out in groups way too many times to doubt it.

In what kind of groups, I wonder. That being said, “I’ve seen this” is hardly decent evidence.

If you look at BLM in particular, and you start in Umbral Ice (which you will for every single raid encounter), the most popular guide even says, point blank, that you do not need to use Diversion. So are the BLM theorycrafters also ignorant? Please.

Really? Because I just pulled up a few runs of the best BLM in the game, and they use Diversion in their opener! Like most jobs do!
Are you going to tell me that a 100th/99th BLM is wrong when it comes to Diversion usage, and you’re right? I think I’ll go with the best BLM in the game with regards to proper play.

Googling various BLM guides also show examples of Diversion being used pre-pull for a BLM opener. What guide are you looking at that tells you “you don’t need to use it”?

Ultimately I—and hopefully many others—will take empirical experience and theorycrafters over the opinions of insult and troll-ready posters.

The theorycrafters tell you to use Diversion. In openers for EVERY JOB, there is a usage of Diversion for the classes that have it—MNK, SAM, DRG, SMN, BLM, RDM. I think the only job who could get away with not using it in their opener (but perhaps using it later) is NIN, because they Shadewalker the MT and give them a portion of their generated aggro for threat management (and you probably don’t want to quell the Shadewalker aggro).

BRD uses Refresh at ~22 seconds after its initial burst for both MP Refresh for the Foe Requiem usage at 1 minute, as well as for dumping their opening aggro (BRD has some of the highest burst in the game, alongside MNK—hey, MNK’s opener has them use Diversion, btw).


I think you should stop with calling players who actually play at a high level “trolls” simply because they so easily prove your arguments wrong. Sounds like a cop-out reply to me, rather than adding anything meaningful to the discussion.

Remember to report rude posts, or else they'll stay and continue to stay and be rude to others. Other times it's just better to not react because that's how tensions rise and people really get to scratching each other beyond forum passive aggressiveness. I stay firm in my belief that Diversion is not necessary for dungeons. Because they are dungeons. For higher level dungeons- which is what this thread is all about as well as the focus n o t being on Savage, if your gear is up to par you wouldn't be taking enmity off the tank anyway unless they were out of tank stance and DPS-ing instead of tanking.

It’s not rude to tell you that you’re wrong, nor to tell you to stop spreading misinformation—which is what Eli85 is doing by saying BLMs don’t need to use enmity management. Also notice how the only one doing any sort of name-calling is the person you have quoted here—anyone who disagrees and counters his posts are “trolls” just looking to “insult others”.

Just because the content isn’t Savage doesn’t give you an excuse to play poorly. I told you before that poor play and bad habits get translated into other content where properly play and good habits matter even more than dungeons (failure to manage your hate in 24-mans may get you killed, and in EX or Savage or Ultimate it will definitely get you killed). Your poor play also makes an easy dungeon a chore for the other 3 people in there—and if all 4 players are playing poorly, it makes it unnecessarily long.

Use Diversion. It costs you nothing, and the excuses you have provided for not using it are flimsy at best.

[Crushnight]

snip

As a nin we use shadewalker in the opener prepull smokescreen is saved partway through if a dps/hlr gets really high on aggro depending on what is going on, I use diversion after opening burst as an ogcd in all fights except o10s as i want to be 2nd on enmity due to how that fight is structured

[HyoMinPark]

As a nin we use shadewalker in the opener prepull smokescreen is saved partway through if a dps/hlr gets really high on aggro depending on what is going on, I use diversion after opening burst as an ogcd in all fights except o10s as i want to be 2nd on enmity due to how that fight is structured

I figured they don’t use Diversion prepull—I believe that some NINs do say it’s fine to pre-pull Smokescreen a job like BRD, though. I have been Smokescreened by NINs on various occasions, so I think that’s a good usage of it. Future uses can be planned if you’re doing things in a static setting, but I don’t think you should sit on it in the opener if you have a decent BRD in the party.

BRDs everywhere appreciate a Smokescreen for their opener, because we cannot Diversion to quell it on our own.

[Crushnight]

I figured they don’t use Diversion prepull—I believe that some NINs do say it’s fine to pre-pull Smokescreen a job like BRD, though. I have been Smokescreened by NINs on various occasions, so I think that’s a good usage of it. Future uses can be planned if you’re doing things in a static setting, but I don’t think you should sit on it in the opener if you have a decent BRD in the party.

BRDs everywhere appreciate a Smokescreen for their opener, because we cannot Diversion to quell it on our own.

it depends on a fight by fight basis so long as smokescreen is not needed on anyone within it's cd period all good prepull, i have run with a mch over brd so i have been unfamiliar with how high their burst was until the mch tried brd out whoo boy did i have to pop smokescreen after XD smokescreen is generally used after learning the first few mins of a fight in case something goes Neo Exdeath again >_> this is my philosphy however and other nins may use it more frequently earlier.

[Spiralgaia]

That gear level seems normal for first-timers going in there. Also, I'm pretty sure there isn't an ilvl sync for Shinryu, so a new tank will definitely have to work harder if the majority of the party is at 370+. Most of the time I end up in there, I typically have more HP as a healer (due to 380/390 gear) than a tank if they're new. I feel like SE should have put a 350 or so sync on it just to keep it from getting too far out of control. As long as they can get the mechanics figured out it almost always goes well, even if some random over-geared players end up taking some hits occasionally. As far as the other tank, that was definitely a lazy/bad one. They should have stepped up and at least tried to hold top aggro so only one DPS or healer would get hit if the other tank couldn't keep up.

That's the kicker, they weren't a new tank. They had more classes to 70 and when questioned about the gear, they didn't even reply. They simply pulled Shinryu to prevent from kicking. (Which also means they hadn't run the job quest, as it gives a full i290 set...)
I did stand corrected, as Shinryu has a limit of i280.
Unfortunately, with both tanks not doing their job, the other healer, a RDM and I had to take the brunt of almost all autoattacks. (Though I do agree some manner of synch wouldn't be bad there.)

And of course this was just one of the MANY instances I had to witness where someone went into something undergeared and made it arguably harder for everyone.

[Anarnee]

God please, if I run into another tank in Bardam's, Doma Castle, or Castrum Abania, that tries to do large pulls when they still have on ilv 100 stuff, Imma scream.

It's especially infuriating because they always try to blame the healer.