Two Months of BLU: Discuss!

[Shougun]

I feel that this idea of "Advanced" Jobs wherein it's ending up creating a proper job (Not really, you're just advocating copy/paste BLM/DRG/SMN but with different spell effects) and then also creating a second Job that is a glorified Limited Job we have now seems a little silly.

I feel like the idea that SE can't design a new job is silly. So I guess this silly feeling is mutual :P. I really dislike the arguments of "but it'll just be BLM/SMN" like SE is incapable of designing something unique beyond what they've already done :/. SE can design a new mage, I'm certain of this.

Given that there's a myriad of ways to make a proper job out of BLU whilst still retaining its ability to have unique stuff such as learning new skills and accessing "OP" skills that can only be used in old content. All of which would merely require creating a single job, not 2 (Especially with additional Soul Crystals... We only have 4 slots left in the Armory chest, 2 of which will be taken up by Gunbreaker and Dancer in ShB... Adding jobs that will now need 2 different Crystals is going to be a pain).

An example for BLU would being having a "Duty Skill Set" that is automatically enabled when entering a duty that is sync'd, that has limited customization (I.e. You can swap out for different flavour of the same skills. So you can pick whichever 130 potency filler skill to use in the slot it takes but you can't remove said 130 potency spell from your spellbook entirely) so it can be balanced around while maintaining some customization. While for unsync'd content you can have all your other skill sets completely open to what you feel like using.

Essentially, acting as this "Advanced Job" dual jobs, but working within a single job. Using a framework that already exists (Being able to save skill sets for BLU) and so reducing the need to dump resources into creating and maintaining 2 jobs where one of them just won't end up being functional in a way that actually makes it feel like the job it's supposed to be.

In addition, putting in the systems to enable "Limited Jobs" to act as normal jobs also will work going into the future.

For example, if you make it so that "Limited Jobs" have to "Unlock" access to the Duty Finder. So they need to do a quest at level 50 which requires them to have spells X, Y, Z (BLU), beasts X, Y, Z (BST), mammets X, Y, Z (PUP) etc. Then they unlock level 1-50 DF. Same at level 60 and 70 and 80 etc.

Thus they're "Limited" in that they don't automatically access everything the same as a normal job, they have to meet certain requirements due to their different progression system. As opposed to being "Limited" in that they just can't participate in 90% of the content within the game and rely entirely on individually created content.

I find that if they took the current setup of insert color of 130 potency skill that Blue Mage would be boring, so I'd also rather have a two job system where the limited side is unbalanced and true (or at least "exaggerated") to the original spell and the "main job" side is balanced and follows it's own rules for gameplay mechanical fun. I'm not a fan of the heavy amount of Blue's duplicate potency different color issue and I wouldn't want to see it become a core feature of the job to make it work.

So while your idea is certainly straight forward (massively so, blue mage a normal job by next week sort of levels lol) I guess we'll diverge there as I think Blue Mage isn't in a good place to take the simple route (nor can it be, imo, because "130 potency of X color" feels bad now and I think will feel bad in the future too).

[Kalise]

I feel like the idea that SE can't design a new job is silly. So I guess this silly feeling is mutual :P. I really dislike the arguments of "but it'll just be BLM/SMN" like SE is incapable of designing something unique beyond what they've already done :/. SE can design a new mage, I'm certain of this.

Well, the issue is that you're advocating siphoning off most of the "Interesting" job design to make the fluff "Limited" version of the job.

So, instead of creating 1 coherent class with an interesting set of mechanics you're making 1 Limited Job with an interesting set of mechanics and one "Standard" class.

Which is difficult to do properly, especially if you're trying to make the "2" jobs unique rather than effectively just making 1 job that can adapt to "Fun" content or "Balanced" content.

I find that if they took the current setup of insert color of 130 potency skill that Blue Mage would be boring, so I'd also rather have a two job system where the limited side is unbalanced and true (or at least "exaggerated") to the original spell and the "main job" side is balanced and follows it's own rules for gameplay mechanical fun. I'm not a fan of the heavy amount of Blue's duplicate potency different color issue and I wouldn't want to see it become a core feature of the job to make it work.

It would only be boring when they're doing this half measure of designing BLU where they want to have many spells but don't want to make clear favourites.

To say nothing about the incredible flexibility this would give for adding spells into the "Fun" category as everything that isn't a "Recolour" of the "Balanced" kit can be OP as it would inherently be unusable in any content where balance matters.

Also, just calling them "Recolour" skills is not quite accurate, since there's plenty of room for significant differences between skills - More than the current "Everything is a 130 potency skill just with different AoE's"

Such as more combo interaction (Rebalanced with some form of non-CC based element synergy akin to something I've suggested previously)

Or creating some differences between skills that are situational (Such as a skill like Drill Cannon being a 125 potency skill that is better than a 130 potency skill when there's a DRG for Piercing debuff)

There's a lot that can be done while still keeping within a more focused design of a "Balanced Skill Set" with potential skill swaps that are limited to certain skills and action types (I.e. 130ish potency filler skill. DoT skill. 30s oGCD, 60s oGCD, 90s oGCD etc)

So while your idea is certainly straight forward (massively so, blue mage a normal job by next week sort of levels lol) I guess we'll diverge there as I think Blue Mage isn't in a good place to take the simple route (nor can it be, imo, because "130 potency of X color" feels bad now and I think will feel bad in the future too).

Simple is good. Simple costs less time and resources. Simple makes sense.

I also don't think that BLU is so out of whack that it needs to be recreated from scratch. Twice.

I think that the existing framework for can be easily moulded into a job that has both the aspects of being a fun side-job to mess around with in old content using silly abilities as well as being a functional job that can be balanced in regular content.

[Shougun]

Well, the issue is that you're advocating siphoning off most of the "Interesting" job design to make the fluff "Limited" version of the job.

So, instead of creating 1 coherent class with an interesting set of mechanics you're making 1 Limited Job with an interesting set of mechanics and one "Standard" class.

Which is difficult to do properly, especially if you're trying to make the "2" jobs unique rather than effectively just making 1 job that can adapt to "Fun" content or "Balanced" content.

Well in part because I don't think limited job is currently interesting, it's also why I'm not a huge fan of the simple solution you've put forward - because I don't find Blue Mage interesting as it is (at least for simple changes to be enough, imo :3).

So I do think it's bad enough that it needs to be looked at sincerely and deeply. Well, besides the short time of casting thousand needle before that got old it hasn't been fun (imo), and this is coming from someone who loved FFXI's and dearly wanted to main a re-spin of Blue Mage.

Obviously it just might be simply (lol) that I haven't let your idea marinate long enough in my head, but it'd be why I'm not like "yes, let's do that!". I do appreciate you're trying to suggest changes too though, we just see how good or bad things are differently.

Also I'd say you're not stealing much in terms of ideas because limited side isn't designed with some sort of balance in mind, it's not requiring a tightly bound ship just a fun ship. That still might steal ideas as you suggest but it could also "take" ideas that would normally be imbalanced so that's fine (things that just don't work normally). Mostly I think in type of diablo 3 and how items and skills work where you might get one spell that does one effect and gear that does another thing but together they create a whole new concept, besides for like two spells right now that doesn't really exist in blue mage in any sort of fun compelling manner - I'd just suggest going to interaction town and letting the pieces lie how they may. It's not important to balance things as tightly as even Diablo 3 in that this job is meant (imo) to destroy old content so if you've found how to trigger Fire Angon 8 times in a row with a few tricks then.. cool, keep breaking the job its meant to be (imo) a "break the game" playground. When SE adds new spells they could be things that mix up the "OP" meta and require whole rebuilds of your job. I see your example of a debuff means you might use physical spell instead for an extra 5% damage but personally sounds like planning my consumables in levels of excitement lol (good stuff for those that like to parsers and make rotations from that though).

I've read your suggestion, I think it'd make Blue Mage better than it is now but.. even with the changes blue mage still doesn't sound "fun" to me, ESPECIALLY as a limited job. Limited job, imo, should either never exist or be /fun/ insanity because the in-between limbo is just bad feeling (imo, obviously - perhaps to some people casting doom 6 times in a row is fun, not really to me though).

Your idea might have been warmer feeling to me if that was introduced first before Blue Mage came out but at this point with the idea of more limited jobs possibly coming and the purpose of making something limited, meh I think it's a mistake if it's too balanced and imo the limited side should be unbound and chaotic. Part of a problem I have with the spells blending like you've suggested with some skills being Op and some being spells you use (such that you're not designing "two jobs") is that then it's just a flash in the pan here or there when in limited mode - "..normal normal normal ooooo- normal normal". Imo it should be like a Yugioh cut scene with each spell having an introduction of how you've fallen for their blue eye triple white platinum busty dragon trap card. .

Go big or don't go limited, that's where I'm at with this at this time.. maybe it'll change.

Like to me Blue Mage has the Carnival and solo king (for old content explicitly), Beast Master would gain Shepard DoL like content (could probably solo well too but that's not it's point of limited portion), Puppet Master would gain heavy minion customization options (emotes, personality, minion crafting), each offering a new limited systems/ways to approach the game that wasn't possible before. Having an in for each player who doesn't want to main them either. Like bard brought music or dancer may bring choreography, in that they can be easily accessed by even those who don't main the job (not in how deep or shallow one might view those two content pieces - I was looking for "limited" to be more like "everyone's gift").

I'm still willing to have my mind changed but I might need to hear more from SE first on their plans and sit on this simple solution longer. Mostly because I don't think Blue Mage is fun enough that a simple solution makes it interesting as I hope it would be.

So while I find difficulty seeing the simple suggestions as interesting you think my idea is "silly" and requires too much work (certainly it's more work than yours so that's actually a fair statement lol), but at this point I'd just say we'll have to disagree and that's that.

Fun to get the ideas out there though and see where people differ on the same job with what they want changed .

[Physic]

when they say its unbalanced or breaks the system, they arent just talking huge dps. They are talking about being a lot less role dominant, Having powerful situational abilities, more control than other jobs, etc.

also the concept that blue has tons of skills that serve the same purpose is overstated. there are very few abilities that serve no purpose.

[Nariel]

when they say its unbalanced or breaks the system, they arent just talking huge dps. They are talking about being a lot less role dominant, Having powerful situational abilities, more control than other jobs, etc.

also the concept that blue has tons of skills that serve the same purpose is overstated. there are very few abilities that serve no purpose.

Situation they most likely only encounter inside the masked carnival because anything else is or too weak to matter or totaly imunised. But its the whole point of the carnival after all, special situation for the blue mage to show of skill existing only for this stage of the carnival.

BLU only exist for Carnival and Carnival only exist for BLU to have a purpose in game just like LoV only exist to show minion skills that exist only to be used inside LoV, outside of it they're just cute little thing just like blue mage is just a cute little wanna-be-a-job to kill trash mob with.

You're okay with that, great for you, but it seems like people expect one of the most iconic job of the Final Fantasy franchise to be more than an underwhelming mini-game.

[Physic]

Situation they most likely only encounter inside the masked carnival because anything else is or too weak to matter or totaly imunised. But its the whole point of the carnival after all, special situation for the blue mage to show of skill existing only for this stage of the carnival.

BLU only exist for Carnival and Carnival only exist for BLU to have a purpose in game just like LoV only exist to show minion skills that exist only to be used inside LoV, outside of it they're just cute little thing just like blue mage is just a cute little wanna-be-a-job to kill trash mob with.

You're okay with that, great for you, but it seems like people expect one of the most iconic job of the Final Fantasy franchise to be more than an underwhelming mini-game.

i disagree completely, the only thing stopping blues abilities from dominating content is the fact they are level blocked or not allowed in content.

Blue would destroy, Eureka, High level HoH, Potd, dungeons, most trials and standard raids. They might not dominate savage raids, due to them being tuned to require peak stats, and negate most game mechanics outside of single target fights.

fact is blues dont need tanks, healers, probably have the most control in the game. They also have a number of powerful situational combos. These traits have use everywhere. Go play blue without a carry, and you begin to see how strong thier kits are. And this is only the level 50 blue.

[Nariel]

i disagree completely, the only thing stopping blues abilities from dominating content is the fact they are level blocked or not allowed in content.

Blue would destroy, Eureka, High level HoH, Potd, dungeons, most trials and standard raids. They might not dominate savage raids, due to them being tuned to require peak stats, and negate most game mechanics outside of single target fights.

fact is blues dont need tanks, healers, probably have the most control in the game. They also have a number of powerful situational combos. These traits have use everywhere. Go play blue without a carry, and you begin to see how strong thier kits are. And this is only the level 50 blue.

Yeah, its easy to make assuption when they just can't do it because of their limitation. If my aunt had balls we would call her my uncle.

Find me a single boss that fit a situational blue combo, remember that they have no damage type weakness nor elemental weakness and they are immune to every alteration. I checked, they at best can use 4 version of the same spell to do damage and spamming "low chance" skill in the hope it will instakill it. Such gameplay, much wow. But I'm maybe wrong here, I played it only the first day, capped it and let it rot because its useless to even bother looking for a rotation.

[ReiMakoto]

i disagree completely, the only thing stopping blues abilities from dominating content is the fact they are level blocked or not allowed in content.

Blue would destroy, Eureka, High level HoH, Potd, dungeons, most trials and standard raids. They might not dominate savage raids, due to them being tuned to require peak stats, and negate most game mechanics outside of single target fights.

fact is blues dont need tanks, healers, probably have the most control in the game. They also have a number of powerful situational combos. These traits have use everywhere. Go play blue without a carry, and you begin to see how strong thier kits are. And this is only the level 50 blue.

We've discussed this with you on other threads but BLU would not dominate these fields as much as you say. Yea they would be powerful in dungeons, but not horrendously broken. It probably would be good in eureka, but eureka is also an semi afk zerg rush, where things die very fast, so thats not too helpful. Trials and raids theyre a decent support dps because of peculiar light, that is all, we've explained to you before that white wind and diamond back does not a broken class make.

Their kit is not that strong, they are piss poor tanks, and have one healing spell, see my post history talking to physic for further details on this.

[Auryan]

While I don't personally care for your (Shougun) version, I do prefer it to Kalise's, which feels more like downplaying and slowly removing the limited aspects from BLU in order to make it into a standard job.

My main gripe with your version is that you're reducing the limited aspect to bard's music playing. As some small and quite insignificant feature. And to me, the limited side is what captures my attention. I would likely just lvl a standard BLU to max and then ignore it. Like I did with RDM.

I have little interest in the fan creations of standard BLU. If it means I can keep limited BLU and other people can main it, great. However, if the standard part is too dominant and the limited some half forgotten after thought, I'm less likely to support it.

This also counts for the other jobs.

[Shougun]

While I don't personally care for your (Shougun) version, I do prefer it to Kalise's, which feels more like downplaying and slowly removing the limited aspects from BLU in order to make it into a standard job.

My main gripe with your version is that you're reducing the limited aspect to bard's music playing. As some small and quite insignificant feature. And to me, the limited side is what captures my attention. I would likely just lvl a standard BLU to max and then ignore it. Like I did with RDM.

I have little interest in the fan creations of standard BLU. If it means I can keep limited BLU and other people can main it, great. However, if the standard part is too dominant and the limited some half forgotten after thought, I'm less likely to support it.

This also counts for the other jobs.

I think you misunderstood me then, if you believe limited is down played. In my version limited would be it's own creation of combo ing different abilities to create wild combos like one might see with legendary sets in diablo 3. It would allow people to join in without having to gear it up like a standard job (power level through ability collection).


I mean it's fine to not like it but literally the idea up plays limited concept not down, so there must be some miscommunication. Like significant levels lol.