It makes zero sense for the PLD class to have three different skills for AoE

[Dhaid]

I can see the two being consolidated, but if the spin did something other than just damage then id say keep it around.

[Kalise]

you sugestion was generate more gauge with aoes, aka overpower, to fuel more decimates/steel and don't rely on single target combos in case you need it to gain more gauge.
this cause you get more resources to use more decimates and since decimate/steel have way more potency that overpower (130 vs 200/280) WAR will generate way more dps bcs of that since you will increase the amount tof decimates aviable per encounter outside of inner release.

I said generate gauge with AN AoE skill. Not necessarily Overpower. Said AoE skill with gauge increase need not be as potent as Overpower. It need not be Overpower itself either.

since you didn't add WAR will need potencty ajustment to acomodate you request and don't skyrocket his already big ungabunga dps and that's why some take it like a overpowered sugestion coming from no where, nothing more.

That was implied, because unlike some people, I'm not an idiot who thinks that anything that is given to a class it literally just going to be slapped on to the class as is with no adjustments at all.

Anyone with half a brain could have thought that maybe, instead of asking WAR to get massive AoE DPS output, that maybe, I kind of wanted Overpower to be tuned down in order to push some of the AoE DPS outside of Inner Release towards the Gauge spenders?

Since, why the hell would I want to make an overpowered suggestion?

I've never done so anywhere else on these forums, nor did I advocate any such massively ovepowering suggestions within that original post in regards to PLD. So what, other than your incredible bias against WAR lead you to believe I was asking for a straight up huge buff to WAR AoE DPS?

Honestly, I've been putting in feedback for various jobs for the past few months and literally, every single one of them has me trying to suggest gameplay improvements that don't directly translate into outright massive buffs to said jobs. Yet, the second I mention anything about WAR, suddenly both you any Lyth jump on me and accuse me of trying to merely add a bunch of crap onto current WAR. Even despite me stating, on multiple occasions, that I fully expect WAR to be rebalanced in 5.0 and hopefully done in a way that tones down the areas where they overperform. Just like I hope that PLD and DRK get rebalanced to get boosts to the areas where they underperform and toned down in areas they overperform.

I don't care much about if WAR is the strongest tank or weakest tank in the game. So long as it can do the content and its fun to play (Which has always been how I've viewed "Metas" and has lead me to main tank in other games as a raid leader on classes that have been considered "Garbage" tier and I've always done fine because playing a class you like > playing a "Meta" class you don't). As such, there's no reason for me to suggest unnecessary buffs trying to overpower the job.

[Bright-Flower]

I wouldn't mind seeing flash's enmity baked into TE, either by removing flash and learing TE at flash's level or putting in a trait that turns flash into TE.

I know it's controversial but we could also save three button slots by condensing combos into RoH combo button, goring blade combo button and RA combo button.

[Lyth]

There are a few reasons why I brought up the removal of TP from the game. A lot of what happens with our AoE system is going to depend on how this gets implemented.

Right now, every AoE in the game has a resource cost attached. If you bottom out, then you're stuck with single target moves until your resources tick back up. When TP is removed, one of two things could happen: we could see some of these AoE actions become free, or we could see an alternative resource attached in place of TP (i.e. MP).

If TP costs are simply removed, then some odd things happen. PLD's primary dps AoE becomes free (Total Eclipse), and paradoxically cheaper than their zero damage enmity AoE (Flash). WAR's overpower becomes free, giving them better sustain (and bear in mind, Overpower isn't all that far behind Total Eclipse in potency). I think that in order to happen, you'd probably see everyone have a baseline AoE enmity move that was free, with a dps AoE that cost resources to use (i.e. MP for PLD, gauge for WAR, blood for DRK).

If TP costs are replaced with MP costs, then you run into a situation where Flash and Total Eclipse are both competing for the same resource, while the other tanks can spread their resource costs across two different bars. I think this still points to the fact that Flash isn't fun to use, and PLD would benefit from having Total Eclipse moved down to Level 6 as a primary enmity AoE, while gaining a magic-based dps AoE fuelled by MP.

With regards to why WAR can't generate gauge by using AoE moves (be they GCD or oGCD), it's because Decimate provides so much burst, and Steel Cyclone provides so much self-sustain. If you wanted to implement your suggestion fairly, you'd have to give a fairly substantial nerf to both of these abilities, not Overpower. Otherwise, you're running into a situation where you're just buffing WAR's sustained dps without compromising burst at all.

[...]the game should be called Final Warrior: A Warrior Reborn, HeavensWarrior, StormWarrior, WarriorBringers because they're the best class in the entire game.

I was going to suggest "World of WARcraft".

[TouchandFeel]

snip

I highly suspect that they will just consolidate TP and MP into one single resource. Functionally it will be mostly the same to what we currently have, just no separate TP and MP, just whatever they call the new resource.

If they go this route they will likely remove any resource/tp cost from combo actions while retaining a resource cost for other abilities like Overpower.

As for Total Eclipse and Flash, that's a tough one to predict how it will be handled since the dueling resources and switching off between the two actions was sort of the defining aspect of PLD AoE, but I wouldn't be surprised if they went the much requested route and removed one of them and just consolidated it all into one ability that did enmity and damage in one ability, maybe upgrading Flash with a trait.
If they do keep both abilities they will probably make them similar to Unleash/Abyssal Drain where Flash costs a lot less and Total Eclipse costs more.

In the end we won't know for sure until they reveal the combat changes coming with ShB.

[shao32]

I said generate gauge with AN AoE skill. Not necessarily Overpower. Said AoE skill with gauge increase need not be as potent as Overpower. It need not be Overpower itself either.



That was implied, because unlike some people, I'm not an idiot who thinks that anything that is given to a class it literally just going to be slapped on to the class as is with no adjustments at all.

Anyone with half a brain could have thought that maybe, instead of asking WAR to get massive AoE DPS output, that maybe, I kind of wanted Overpower to be tuned down in order to push some of the AoE DPS outside of Inner Release towards the Gauge spenders?

Since, why the hell would I want to make an overpowered suggestion?

I've never done so anywhere else on these forums, nor did I advocate any such massively ovepowering suggestions within that original post in regards to PLD. So what, other than your incredible bias against WAR lead you to believe I was asking for a straight up huge buff to WAR AoE DPS?

Honestly, I've been putting in feedback for various jobs for the past few months and literally, every single one of them has me trying to suggest gameplay improvements that don't directly translate into outright massive buffs to said jobs. Yet, the second I mention anything about WAR, suddenly both you any Lyth jump on me and accuse me of trying to merely add a bunch of crap onto current WAR. Even despite me stating, on multiple occasions, that I fully expect WAR to be rebalanced in 5.0 and hopefully done in a way that tones down the areas where they overperform. Just like I hope that PLD and DRK get rebalanced to get boosts to the areas where they underperform and toned down in areas they overperform.

well i saw many crazy stuff become reality on WAR during this expansion i don't expect less.

so for being clear i just adding feedback to you suggestion, by desing you can't give WAR better gauge generation to aoes and you suggestion imply a nerf on the potency of certain skills, i just say overpower bcs its the only skill WAR have that don't cost gauge except you expect get a new one this expansion, everything is posible, but again it will imply big potency down to decimate and steel cyclone to add that and i hope you are aware about that, sustain comes at the cost of burst.

despite about WAR current status coments was since you stated DRK have the best dps aoe, and thats not correct, DRK is the best on aoe for desing and gameplay, numbers are another thing, i don't thing anyone want to come again with a endless discusion about current tank status specially since looks like we all want the same and we know we are not agree on some things no matter what.

[Kalise]

sustain comes at the cost of burst.

Well, clearly this is something I'm willing to take, given that I don't want Inner Release to exist in its current state, which is literally the driving force behind WAR's burst, without IR WAR's burst is nothing spectacular.

Even with Berserk, WAR's burst was limited. Since, at best, you could toss out 3 Fell Cleaves with a full gauge and Infuriate.

Inner Release is just a terribly designed skill. Like, yes, I think WAR should err towards burst damage as a theme but no, I don't think condensing 40% of their total damage output to 10s windows of spamming 1 skill is a particularly good way of doing it.

despite about WAR current status coments was since you stated DRK have the best dps aoe, and thats not correct, DRK is the best on aoe for desing and gameplay, numbers are another thing

WAR has best AoE DPS only when IR is up. Without it, DRK is by far the best AoE DPS due to Salted Earth and Abyssal Drain + Quietus spam even more so when without Grit so can use Blood Weapon and get the full benefit from Darkside.

Unless you're think about when leveling up, in which case, yes, while leveling up WAR is far and away the best AoE Tank in the game and it's not even close. Due to PLD and DRK not getting their spam AoE skills with comparable damage to Overpower until much later (50 for PLD getting Eclipse + Circle and 64 for DRK getting Quietus, Abyssal and Salted)

i don't thing anyone want to come again with a endless discusion about current tank status specially since looks like we all want the same and we know we are not agree on some things no matter what.

Then why are you and Lyth so quick to jump onto anyone that suggests anything about WAR?

This is supposed to be a thread about PLD and I make a small aside about wishing for a more interesting AoE rotation for WAR given the topic is about AoE and making changes to PLD's AoE rotation and skill availability and all of a sudden out of nowhere there's people making like 1-1.5 pages of comments about how OP WAR is so they can't have any actually fun skills.

Same as in that other thread which was supposed be about Gunbreaker, but then someone mentioned WAR and then it was like 5-10 pages of "WAR is OP" crying...

Like, I'm almost getting to the point of hoping 5.0 craps on DRK's just to spite you two, even against my own wish that DRK becomes actually really awesome and fun and useful. Just because it's INSANE that it's literally not possible to mention "The Job That Must Not Be Named" without you two coming with your tirade about how WAR is so OP they're not allowed anything.

I just want my class to be fun. I don't want it to be OP, I just want it to be fun. So I would like to be able suggest ideas that could increase the fun of the class without having to deal with the WAR Police whom have a personal vendetta against WAR so that they cannot tolerate the existence of any kind of talking about WAR unless it's a cry for nerfs.

Anyway, trying to get something on topic and somewhat relevant to the thread:

With the consolidation of the resources and all that jazz, in addition to my previous mention of possibly giving PLD a Gauge spender that's useful in AoE...

What if they ended up making Total Eclipse their spam AoE ability and then altered Flash to function as a Gauge spender for AoE situations?

So, you'd Sheltron vs Single Targets and Flash vs Multiple. As opposed to now where you either throw out a mediocre Sheltron or just sit on full gauge because there's little worth in blocking 20% of one of the like 10+ attacks coming in per second...

[Shurrikhan]

PLD's issue is Flash and Total Eclipse fill the same role, which is spammable AoE just arbitrarily one has the enmity boost on and the other has the damage. (Though, it's similar thing for DRK with Unleash/Abyssal Drain where both have enmity boost just one does more damage and can also be used to gain life. While being TAoE instead of PBAoE...)

Not quite, though. Flash does at least offer mitigation in a way that is wasted if spammed, just as Anticipation would be wasted with, say, Raw Intuition.

I'd have to argue that now that AD's enmity modifier has been greatly increased relative to its initial state, it and Unleash are more redundant than Flash and Total Eclipse.

In any case, though, I do hope we can see them consolidated in a satisfying way, rather than just another trimming of mechanics and/or capacity.

Also, to be fair: Goring Blade has the best AoE animation in PLD's kit. A shame it, like most skills that cleave everything in front of you in their appearance, is single-target...

[Shurrikhan]

AoE tanking almost always happens in short bursts, unless your dps are asleep.

Yet you don't want to siphon any of Warrior's AoE power from their burst into their sustain?

If you haven't noticed from Kalise's posts you've already responded to by now, there's rarely anything suggested explicitly at no cost to capacity to balance out the adjustment unless a job or some capacity therein is specifically undertuned. We're going into a new expansion; if someone makes a suggestion for gameplay that would increase, say, sustain, the base assumption would be that something else is being rebalanced to compensate (e.g. Warrior's herp-derp spam the Decimate AoE burst).

You've been given a suggestion that would almost certainly favor the same trajectory you apparently prefer (curtailing WAR's insane burst AoE), yet you instead use the opportunity solely to lecture the poster on the evils of Warrior as it stands now (at the brink of an expansion) and to snidely discredit them... Hmm.

[Jandor]

This alone wouldn't be a problem, if they kept to themselves. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However these people see WAR in a post and IMMEDIATELY start crying about how OP OP OP OP WAR is and start derailing a thread in order to discuss how they believe WAR is so OP that the game should be called Final Warrior: A Warrior Reborn, HeavensWarrior, StormWarrior, WarriorBringers because they're the best class in the entire game.

Meh, Warriors have to take some of the blame for this to be honest.

Not you personally mind, but in general a decent chunk of WAR players have been incredibly obnoxious about their top spot. Busting in to threads about the other tanks, or even other jobs in general, to spam the place up with 'Blue DPS' 'Man mode' & 'Put on your big boy subligar and grab an axe' type rubbish.

I mean, you're not spamming tired half a decade old memes or anything, but you did come in to a thread about Paladin AoE and then end your post talking about Warrior AoE and how Warrior AoE could use some changes to make Warrior play better, and now half the posts in here are about Warrior and you're complaining about how other people derail conversations about your job