ToS Question on Discord Bots, etc.

[KageTokage]

Furthermore I wouldn't call using an external tool to analyze your combat performance cheating. The game saves combat events to a log file and parsing those is fair game. Intercepting network traffic is a bit of a borderline case, but as long as no packets are injected and the data is only used after the fight is complete, I'm willing to give it a clean pass as far as cheating is concerned. It probably does violate the ToS though.

Now, some combat tracker programs are able to provide realtime alerts for certain events, such as when an important ability is about to come off cooldown or when the boss is about to perform a big attack. Those I would call cheating because they directly help the player to perform better in the fight.

I've been in BA groups where they had someone doing callouts using a combat tracker and it did legitimately feel like cheating as they were able to identify mechanics like Proto Ozma's shapeshifting before it even visibly started transforming (I believe the reason is because those moves have an invisible cast bar which the tracker is able to detect).

[Zeonx]

Wouldn't that be just like FFXIAH like the Auction house prices keeping track of sales and prices of each server and character's who buy stuff?

Because it pulls data from FFXI?

[alimdia]

I've been in BA groups where they had someone doing callouts using a combat tracker and it did legitimately feel like cheating as they were able to identify mechanics like Proto Ozma's shapeshifting before it even visibly started transforming (I believe the reason is because those moves have an invisible cast bar which the tracker is able to detect).

Cheating involves getting an unfair advantage, this is not an unfair advantage as you can actually do that without a third party program.




My own tests with the mobs outside Rhalgr's:



You simply filter your battle log to only actions initiated by the enemy, pop out the tab and move it somewhere easily visible, now you can see every time Ozma is about to switch forms, as this is recorded in the battle log before the animation begins.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Oh boy...



Parsing.
I don't see parsing as a problem as long as it's not used to harass.
I support getting official parsing. Too lazy to bother doing it myself.


Botting.
This is a problem.
Programs to completely automate your gameplay are not fair.



Modding.
I don't see a problem with this, if used responsibly.
Hell, there's plenty of outfits that I'd personally love to have different colors, shaders, or to just hide some of the excessive ornamentation...
And from what I've heard, the main modding community requires that you specifically set it so you can see nsfw stuff or it's not available.



Logging sites.
Don't really have much of an opinion, but I err towards support. I can see how they're useful, but I've never been logfed to one afaik.



Choosing raid members.
I don't see a problem in people being selective with who to raid with.
It's like a job interview or qualification...
From what I've heard of these logging sites, they can provide a huge amount of data on how well you're performing, and can help with improvement.





I feel you're overreacting op.
And, reporting anyone for just using a parser, even if they're not harasssing anyone, that's just petty.

[AxlStream]

And, reporting anyone for just using a parser, even if they're not harasssing anyone, that's just petty.

How much you wanna bet it's because he knows he's terrible?

[SaitoHikari]

Yikes. This thread tells me a lot of people are technologically illiterate, and that's saying a lot as I am rather technologically illiterate myself.

Let's clearly define what everything actually is, instead of trying to twist everything to fit into a super broad umbrella. Understand that there is a HUGE difference between merely 'violating the TOS' and straight up 'cheating'. To many people, there is no difference. To SE, the distinction determines how they prioritize what to hit with the ban stick.

- Botting: A program that performs in-game functions for the player. Actual cheating because it straight up automates gameplay without the player needing to be physically present.

- Parsing: Gathers combat data for the player. Is it against the TOS? On the strict definition of it usually being done by third party programs, yes. Not by the definition of cheating, as there is none, as they don't automate actual gameplay functions, nor does it change anything about how the game operates itself. Hence the developer staff not being against parsing, but being against the abuse of the information that is gathered, if it is to be turned against other members of the community. Note how all actions taken against people who parse were done on the basis of harassment, not cheating.

A few times in the history of these forums, I've asked a simple question to several people on the forums that were adamant of having parsers placed under the definition of cheating: What difference in gameplay is there between myself clearing O12S without a parser turned on, and clearing with a parser turned on, that would constitute parsing being defined as cheating? I've yet to have an answer returned to me.

- Modding: A bit of a grey area, but more likely to be considered 'cheating' than parsing ever will, as it involves directly modifying files instead of merely reading data like parsing does. There is no denying that this is against the TOS. Most modding just changes player aesthetics. SE won't give a damn about this, at least from a cheating standpoint, because nothing about that fits the definition. Now, modifying things like changing visuals to make it easier to see mechanics, or modifying the camera to let you zoom out much further than what the game normally lets you do? Oh boy, that is definitely cheating, as those result in direct gameplay advantages.

(IIRC, a raid group in EU had one of their members caught doing the last example while streaming O8S a long while ago. The player was able to view the entire fight arena at once, when you can normally only see about 3/4ths of the arena at most in normal gameplay. As far as I know, they weren't actually punished for it, presumably as all evidence was off-site and I'm not sure SE even has any way to detect that through the game logs itself.)

- Discord Bots: ...Really? They're just automated information programs strictly made to work on Discord itself. They have no actual in-game effects, nor do they actually touch the game in any way. Unless you want to argue about their effects on the community, but that in no way falls under the jurisdiction of the TOS.

-snip-

I legit didn't know about this. The more you know!

[KageTokage]

Cheating involves getting an unfair advantage, this is not an unfair advantage as you can actually do that without a third party program.

You simply filter your battle log to only actions initiated by the enemy, pop out the tab and move it somewhere easily visible, now you can see every time Ozma is about to switch forms, as this is recorded in the battle log before the animation begins.

So I guess this applies to all actions, even ones without a cast bar.

That would've been nice to know like...two years ago, especially if it removes the need to look for visual tells.

[SaitoHikari]

Does this apply to all actions in general then, even ones that don't have a cast bar? Cause that would've been dandy to know like...two years ago.

I believe 'Double Smash' and 'Dread Dive' are instant cast abilities, so I imagine yes. It appears that it includes all named skills, so the only thing that wouldn't record are auto-attacks.

[AxlStream]

I believe 'Double Smash' and 'Dread Dive' are instant cast abilities, so I imagine yes. It appears that it includes all named skills, so the only thing that wouldn't record are auto-attacks.

Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner! Now you know how the parser actually works. Just add the boss + 8 players.

[Legion88]

I've been in BA groups where they had someone doing callouts using a combat tracker and it did legitimately feel like cheating as they were able to identify mechanics like Proto Ozma's shapeshifting before it even visibly started transforming (I believe the reason is because those moves have an invisible cast bar which the tracker is able to detect).

This is not the work of a combat tracker.
They just use a timeline.
Even Ozma has a preset order in which it uses its skills, the only randomisation can be, to which form it changes, so you need a branching on that point in the timeline if the different forms have different durations, and which person will be hit by which mechanic.
With this in mind you can easiely make a flowchart of the fight and callout mechanics even before their specific tells occur.
COmbat trackers can even do the callouts based on a timeline and verify through specific individual mechanics they scan for on what branch they are, but that can every person with a pen and a piec of paper.