ToS Question on Discord Bots, etc.

[bgd624624]

I've played FFXIV on and off for years and greatly enjoy the game. However, I've typically played solo as each time I join an FC/discord/LC I find an a la carte, all you can eat buffet of 3rd party tools that violate the ToS, sites that use those tools, discord bots that datamine, how-to exploits, in-game bots for gathering, PvP, pretty much everything, adult client mods, etc.

• I understand that this is an MMORPG and is unavoidable.
• I understand that SE has an extremely restrictive ToS.
• I understand that SE looks the other way and that you can "get away with it."

When I play a game, I abide by the ToS out of a sense of honor and integrity, even if I do not agree with parts of it. If something is against a game's ToS, and you break it, you are cheating. This isn't subjective. It seems here the community consensus is "something is okay because SE can't find out or won't take action and it is SEs fault anyway not mine."

My experience thus far:

1. Joined an FC and typical I parse this, I rank this. I've played MMORPGs for a long time, and FFXIV as well. I'm confident in my rotations and know my fights. I don't need to cheat to be a good player. In other games this is not cheating, in this game, it is. If someone mentions parsing, I report them.
   
2. Joined a Novice Network LS and a mentor on it linked to novice discord. It was like the dark web of FFXIV. Bots, DPS meters, mods (that were just plain gross), etc.
   
3. Joined an RP discord. I mean you want to avoid this stuff, go RP right? Nope. Bots that poll sites which collect parsing information to decide who to raid with. So much for RP.

Is it possible to play this game with others and not violate the ToS, directly or indirectly? At this point, I'm about to throw in the towel and move on. I've loved the lore and story lines, but you can't play a game like this completely alone, it gets old fast. My last attempt was okay, I'll RP I love to RP. But even that seems to be a no go. I think when a game makes a restrictive ToS but then doesn't enforce it, this situation develops. Finally, is all I'm saying allowed? I mean can you have discord bots and DPS meters and that's considered "okay?" Understand, I'm not against the tools themselves and IMHO much of this should be allowed. What I won't do is use them or partake in a community that does the same.

[JackHatchet]

I've been in many FFXIV discords, and not once have I ever joined one that actively supported or provided links to botting. For you to say 'each time' seems radical.

Additionally, NSFW channels are hit or miss. I've noticed a lot of discords shying away from them simply due to under-aged users and the headache of policing them. But again, I don't see people posting in-game screenshots of people using mods.

What the heck kind of discords are you joining? lol...

[JackHatchet]

Is it possible to play this game with others and not violate the ToS, directly or indirectly?

Honestly, I wouldn't let it bother you too much. You basically break the law at least once every year for whatever nationality you live in. It's virtually impossible to be perfect. Just do your best to uphold your standard, but don't break down the moment you get some dirt on you. It happens to everyone.

[SannaR]

Unfortunately you won't know if someone is actively using a parser or not unless they're dumb enough to announce it. Also you can't do anything about discord bots as that's out of the game. I know you say you can be a good player without one, but unless you want to crunch the math the game gives you from the battle logs there is no way to know if you're doing enough of a good job that includes fight mechanics. Yes we have SSS but clearing those just means you can finish the fight doesn't mean you can also do the dance.

[bgd624624]

I've been in many FFXIV discords, and not once have I ever joined one that actively supported or provided links to botting. For you to say 'each time' seems radical.

Additionally, NSFW channels are hit or miss. I've noticed a lot of discords shying away from them simply due to under-aged users and the headache of policing them. But again, I don't see people posting in-game screenshots of people using mods.

What the heck kind of discords are you joining? lol...

An RP discord and Novice Network one! They all use discord bots that data mine the game and ranking sites which derive their data from parsers. I mean honestly, the "each time" holds true at least in my case. Probably bad luck!

[bgd624624]

Unfortunately you won't know if someone is actively using a parser or not unless they're dumb enough to announce it. Also you can't do anything about discord bots as that's out of the game. I know you say you can be a good player without one, but unless you want to crunch the math the game gives you from the battle logs there is no way to know if you're doing enough of a good job that includes fight mechanics. Yes we have SSS but clearing those just means you can finish the fight doesn't mean you can also do the dance.

I'm not debating the benefits a DPS meter provides. I use them in other games. I'm sure I would improve upon using one. But it is cheating, plain and simple. I don't think it should be... but it is in this game. I can get my gathering jobs up to 70 real quick by botting, get more Gil and become a better player that way too. Same scenario. If something is against the ToS, and you're doing it for self-improvement or to get a clear, you are flat out cheating.

[JackHatchet]

I don't understand your point. If you don't want to cheat then don't cheat. Simple as that. Just because someone links stuff on Discord--doesn't mean you have to use it.

[bgd624624]

I don't understand your point. If you don't want to cheat then don't cheat. Simple as that. Just because someone links stuff on Discord--doesn't mean you have to use it.

My point is, I've yet to find a community within this game that is not abusing the ToS in one way or another. I guess I was wondering if I'm just unlucky, or if things like discord bots are actually allowed and I'm wrong. I'm more than fine with being wrong and unlucky.

[Kazrah]

Is it possible to play this game with others and not violate the ToS, directly or indirectly?

So it's only a bannable offense if it happens inside the game, meaning in-game text or anything you bring up exclusively inside the game or potentially on these forums. No matter how they change the ToS, they legally can't do anything to you just because of something solely on Discord.

Best example I can think of was someone I heard of getting banned for posting modded images on a social media web page, but ONLY because they posted the link to that particular social media page in their character's social note in-game. Now even if they could do that with Discord (which they can't), it'd result in too much time and effort wasted on what would otherwise be a potential PR nightmare.

[bgd624624]

So it's only a bannable offense if it happens inside the game, meaning in-game text or anything you bring up exclusively inside the game or potentially on these forums. No matter how they change the ToS, they legally can't do anything to you just because of something solely on Discord.

Best example I can think of was someone I heard of getting banned for posting modded images on a social media web page, but ONLY because they posted the link to that particular social media page in their character's social note in-game. Now even if they could do that with Discord (which they can't), it'd result in too much time and effort wasted on what would otherwise be a potential PR nightmare.

If a community has a discord server, and that server is running a bot that say, data mines FFXIV the results are displayed in discord of course and that's outside of SE's world. However the bot itself is connecting to FFXIV to obtain that data. That portion interacts directly. I guess my question is, is it okay to do this? If I am on a discord server, can I make use of a discord bot that collects data from the game (game time, hunts, weather, etc.). My thought is no, I can't because that's basically an unauthorized client.