Please don't defile BST

[Eloah]

SMN is literally defined around one off summons.

Exactly. A Summoner summons. Whether they stay or not is besides the point. And you said it yourself, take away the summon and you just have a crappy "BLM wannabe". In all other iterations any Summoner had another set of skills to offset themselves when they weren't summoning.

Don't forget in XI the summons stayed around as well, and performed the same function as the Egis, there was just a larger variety and all were viable. But when the summon had nothing to do, the Summoner became a "BLM wannabe" or WHM, or whatever their sub-job was.

XIV's Summoner is able to summon a "God-like being" to assist them, attack, and provide support to their party, all things that have been present in all iterations.

Can someone please explain to me why ffxi is the standard for every class?.

It's not. For most of the jobs people are open. But because the summons looked "cool" people act like XI, is the only iteration of SMN. As for DRG, I think your good, they just have a stigma about being "floor tanks" but that's played for laughs. They are very respectable in XIV.

[Kalise]

Exactly. A Summoner summons. Whether they stay or not is besides the point.

Actually it isn't.

Most iterations of Summoner are where Summons are more costly than regular spells but as a result more powerful.

And you said it yourself, take away the summon and you just have a crappy "BLM wannabe". In all other iterations any Summoner had another set of skills to offset themselves when they weren't summoning.

Yeah, usually some form of White Magic. Since they were a supportive class that were defined around "Summon big bad monster/deity that does a big blast of damage".

Don't forget in XI the summons stayed around as well, and performed the same function as the Egis, there was just a larger variety and all were viable. But when the summon had nothing to do, the Summoner became a "BLM wannabe" or WHM, or whatever their sub-job was.

And in this same post you also go on to mention about how XI shouldn't be used as a yard stick for class design...

XIV's Summoner is able to summon a "God-like being" to assist them, attack, and provide support to their party, all things that have been present in all iterations.

Egi's are far from god-like beings.

Egi's are literally just Carbuncles with some meaningful lore stapled to them (They're supposed to be made out of Primal aether and only summonable when we've been drenched in said Primal's aether from fighting them) but at the end of the day, they're literally just Carbuncles. They're not strong, they're not special, they don't really have particularly notable skills outside Contagion. It's honestly like you just learn Glamours for your Carbuncles (Then, ironically, get a quest to then glamour them into Carbuncles )

Demi-Bahamut is the closest thing to being a "God-like being" because he comes out and he hits like a truck. Firing lasers with Akh Morn to boot.

It's not. For most of the jobs people are open. But because the summons looked "cool" people act like XI, is the only iteration of SMN.

All my comparisons about Summoner are not from XI.

I've never played XI.

I have however played I-X and XII-XIV (I'll get around to playing XV soon...) and some of the spin-off games (Like Dirge of Cerberus, Dissidia etc)

Not once do I recall in those games ever having a Summoner (Or summon skills in general in lieu of a dedicated class) that summoned a crappy minion to deal damage alongside my team. Every summon skill that I recall, was a one shot powerful and flashy skill that either dealt damage to a target(s) or healed/protected a target(s).

[Eloah]

things and stuff

Look, I don't want to monopolize this thread with a SMN discussion, when it's supposed to be about BST. Especially since if you look at what we both wrote we are agreeing more than disagreeing. I just was trying to state that, it's not one off summons that define a SMN, it's the ability to summon and the summons themselves; Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, etc. that's what defines them.

And as for referencing XI. Truthfully, I've never played it either, just researched as much as I could. I was just demonstrating that even though most people act like it's the end all beat all of the job, the XI version isn't that different from XIV's, yet XIV's get flack. As for why I referenced it to you, it was because the summon stuck around in XI too, like the Egis. Plus you said you played X, that was the first game in the series where the summons became actual party members and stuck around.

Can we both just agree that although our views appear to differ, they are alike. So that this thread can get back the it's real topic.

[Madisonlee]

happy with current SMN etc

XI was a pretty bad iteration of SMN if you ask me, though it was still SMN, so I loved it. After 70 with attacks like predator claws, it became more akin to a true summoner.

XIV was not SMN before Demi-Bahamut. Period. It didn't summon any known summons (carby isn't actually a summon in XIV, if I remember right)

Don't confuse my meaning of "summon" with just some random piece of crap that looks like a chicken nugget. By summon, I meant very specifically *THE* Summons, IE: Avatars, Aeons, Espers, Guardian Forces, Eidolons, Astrals. The same famous ones usually appear in most FF games: Shiva, Ramuh, Titan, Siren, Bahamut, Garuda, Ifrit, Alexander, etc etc.

Not a chicken nugget.

As Kalise said, XIV SMN is literally just WoW's warlock, with Bahamut tacked on (better than nothing, true)

[Eloah]

Don't confuse my meaning of "summon" with just some random piece of crap that looks like a chicken nugget. By summon, I meant very specifically *THE* Summons, IE: Avatars, Aeons, Espers, Guardian Forces, Eidolons, Astrals. The same famous ones usually appear in most FF games: Shiva, Ramuh, Titan, Siren, Bahamut, Garuda, Ifrit, Alexander, etc etc.

Not a chicken nugget.

As Kalise said, XIV SMN is literally just WoW's warlock, with Bahamut tacked on (better than nothing, true)

Okay, this seems to have gotten a bit out of hand, and my original posts meaning seems to have been lost. First off, no I am not happy with XIV's Summoner, I am just not over inflating them into something they arent, and never were. Second, your list of all the past names for summons works against you, kinda, as Egis are XIV's version, which includes classical summons. You referencing Titan's appearance as a "chicken nugget" indicates you don't mind the prospect of the summons, just aren't a fan of their designs; which has been a complaint for some time. And third, who cares if it's just like WoW's Warlock, if we shouldn't be comparing XIV's version to XI's, or any others, we definitely shouldn't compare it to another franchise's similar iteration, in a thematic sense.

The main point that was lost was this: there is no such think as a "real/true Summoner" SE can do whatever they want with their job properties. The job is fine thematically, but mechanically it needs some work, that's the gripe most people have, they just point the finger at the wrong source. Heavensward and Stormblood did a good job "adjusting" things, but they still could be better. We know that they are getting an overhaul in Shadowbringers, so here's hoping.

[Kalise]

And third, who cares if it's just like WoW's Warlock

Personally, I do.

I can't speak for others, but I personally care that it's just like WoW's Warlock.

Not because I dislike WoW's Warlock, far from it, I've always been partial to Warlock. More DoTs = Best DoTs is my motto

However, from a design standpoint, it's lacking if it's just WoW's Warlock. Since Warlock has always had the majority focus on the Warlock themselves, with their minion being just there for buffs maybe a utility skill. They're literal fodder whom Warlocks contract to their will, completely disposable and not at all particularly powerful (Except for like, old Doomguard which required a live sacrifice to summon it and then needed to be actively Enslaved lest it go on a rampage and start killing, well, everyone). Even the Demonology Warlock specialization has a lot of the emphasis still on the Warlock themselves, sure they have more output from their Felguard (Or Wrathguard I believe it is these days?) but you still end up playing essentially Fire Mage but you spawn demons out the wazoo... (Which is actually the only issue I have with Warlock's design, is that after a certain point in the games life Demonology and Chaos specializations started to just feel like Fire Mage 2.0. Even more so when it was meta for Chaos to just use the Sacrifice skill to get rid of their minion altogether)

Compared to how Summoner has been presented in most games in the Final Fantasy series, where summons were always these big, impactful skills where an iconic character comes along and wrecks your opponent (Either by murdering their face, or by aiding your team). These weren't just fodder enemies that you didn't give a crap about and were just glorified DoT's that you got annoyed with when bosses killed with their AoEs. No, these were characters whom you knew and loved being summoned to do their iconic skills which were awesome and powerful.

Like, one of my favourite cutscenes in any Final Fantasy game is still the Bahamut vs Alexander fight in IX

Comparing the scale and power of those 2 summons, to the crappy popotos that we get called an Egi and saying that the job is thematically consistent is farcical.

[Eloah]

Personally, I do.

I can't speak for others, but I personally care that it's just like WoW's Warlock.

Not because I dislike WoW's Warlock, far from it, I've always been partial to Warlock. More DoTs = Best DoTs is my motto

However, from a design standpoint, it's lacking if it's just WoW's Warlock. Since Warlock has always had the majority focus on the Warlock themselves, with their minion being just there for buffs maybe a utility skill. They're literal fodder whom Warlocks contract to their will, completely disposable and not at all particularly powerful (Except for like, old Doomguard which required a live sacrifice to summon it and then needed to be actively Enslaved lest it go on a rampage and start killing, well, everyone). Even the Demonology Warlock specialization has a lot of the emphasis still on the Warlock themselves, sure they have more output from their Felguard (Or Wrathguard I believe it is these days?) but you still end up playing essentially Fire Mage but you spawn demons out the wazoo... (Which is actually the only issue I have with Warlock's design, is that after a certain point in the games life Demonology and Chaos specializations started to just feel like Fire Mage 2.0. Even more so when it was meta for Chaos to just use the Sacrifice skill to get rid of their minion altogether)

Compared to how Summoner has been presented in most games in the Final Fantasy series, where summons were always these big, impactful skills where an iconic character comes along and wrecks your opponent (Either by murdering their face, or by aiding your team). These weren't just fodder enemies that you didn't give a crap about and were just glorified DoT's that you got annoyed with when bosses killed with their AoEs. No, these were characters whom you knew and loved being summoned to do their iconic skills which were awesome and powerful.

Like, one of my favourite cutscenes in any Final Fantasy game is still the Bahamut vs Alexander fight in IX

Comparing the scale and power of those 2 summons, to the crappy popotos that we get called an Egi and saying that the job is thematically consistent is farcical.

I have to thank you for this response. Because this is the kind of response that is needed for the issue at hand with Summoner. You are expressing that the mechanics of the job are the issue, not their theme. Basically, their presentation is off, and presentation is very important. Even XI, where the pet acted very similar to XIV's, had them feel more integral to the job, because of their appearance and their skills. And while that may not completely work in XIV, Demi-Bahumut was a move in the right direction.

So again thank you.