Please don't defile BST

[Eloah]

I swear if one more person or thread brings up SMN not being a "real SMN" I'm gonna scream. It is a "real SMN", because there is no such thing as a "real SMN"; they are different in each version. I honestly thought the masses realized this by now.

Thematically, they are fine, but you are allowed to not like the mechanics of the job. And preferring how another version handled something is fine, we are all going to like different things. But, just because this version doesn't do something another did doesn't make it any less real.

Also, just let it be know that summons by their very nature are meant as visual appeal not a mechanical one. Many players who played XI when it was at its peak have stated they prefer XIV's version because it's more engaging. It's SMN, while flashy was just that, flashy; all style no substance, the substance mostly came from the sub-job. And if a majority of your contributions came from your sub-job what purpose do the summons hold besides being glorified eye candy that are able to attack or use a skill every so often... wait that sounds familiar doesn't it.

The retort I always use for this arguement, that has yet to fail me is this; when have SCH's ever used fairies? Yet why is no one crying, "I want a real SCH".

[Kalise]

The retort I always use for this arguement, that has yet to fail me is this; when have SCH's ever used fairies? Yet why is no one crying, "I want a real SCH".

I'm surprised that retort has yet to fail you, given how incredibly simple it is to undermine.

It's easy to ADD new things to a job that help differentiate it from previous iterations and/or allow it to fit into the particular game. For example, XI's Dragoon had a Wyvern pet. XIV's White Mage has offensive spells.

Their core tenets remain the same, DRG is still focused around having spears/lances and doing leap attacks. It just has an additional thing in XI. White Mage is still focused around healing, it just functions in an MMO setting where being able to attack things on your own is necessary.

To which, Scholar's core tenets remain intact within XIV. They're known throughout their iterations for forgoing weapons like Daggers and Staves in favour of using Books. They also access offensive (Black) and defensive (White) magic. They encapture this design in XIV with or without their Fairy. They merely have a Fairy alongside them as an additional thing that XIV does to tie them into the lore in a way that makes studying a viable means of having an "Unusual" job (Since most of the jobs from ARR are noted as being rare or forbidden which is why every NPC isn't running around with them)

Summoner, in almost every single iteration, has been about summoning powerful entities that have high MP costs but devastating results. Many instances also had them learning a lot of White Magic too (Though, people will gloss over that because typically the most iconic thing about Summoners are their powerful and flashy SUMMONS).

At best XIV has Demi-Bahamut. As a single noteworthy summon with an impact comparable to that of previous games, only introduced at level 70.

Sure, by my own logic they could have added new stuff to the class, like having a permanently summoned pet such as a Carbuncle or Egi. But having these as the focus of the class and for the most part the only identity of the class is an affront to every known iteration.

If you want to compare it to a SCH situation, it would be as if they released the Red Mage we currently have back in ARR under the name Scholar and then at level 70 they gained access to a single skill where they put away their Rapier and Focus and pulled out a book and started to use that to cast a spell. Sure, technically they'd be covering some of the aspects of SCH with that, using both Black and White magic. But you'd see complaints that a Scholar isn't a Scholar if they're not using books. Just like how Summoner isn't a Summoner if it's not using its iconic summons.

[Eloah]

text wall

I hope this doesnt come across as disrespectful, but you realized you agreed with me correct.

The reason my argument has yet to fail is for exactly the reason you said, SE can do whatever they want to/with a job. As long as it maintains the main theme/aspect. SCH does that and just adds a fairy, SMN does that as well but doesn't just have one off summons. So why does SMN get flack for not being a "true SMN" but SCH doesn't get the same flack when they have the same "issue", which is not an issue at all.

[Kalise]

As long as it maintains the main theme/aspect. SCH does that and just adds a fairy, SMN does that as well but doesn't just have one off summons. So why does SMN get flack for not being a "true SMN" but SCH doesn't get the same flack when they have the same "issue", which is not an issue at all.

SMN is literally defined around one off summons.

Just changing them into constant summons isn't the same as just sticking a Fairy on top of a SCH archetype. Because if you took away the Fairy, it's still a SCH. Adding a Wyvern pet onto XI's DRG isn't the same because you take it away and it's still DRG. Take away WHM's damage spells and it's still WHM.

Take away SMN's constant summon and what are you left with? Just a crappy BLM wannabe. Oh, with technically a Demi-Bahamut which we only got after the second expansion after the entire game was basically remade...

See, that's the thing. When you CHANGE a core aspect of the class into something else, you're changing the class. Whereas if you ADD to it, you're simply adding on top of the base class.

With SMN they had their Summons CHANGED into these crappy low impact perma-pets. They weren't added ON TOP of existing one off summons like with other class modifications that have happened between games. If anything, SMN had it's iconic one off summoning added ON TOP of whatever you call the class that exists in the game (I tend to just call it Warlock because that's essentially how it plays, exactly like WoW's Warlock) - Since it also fits with the addition theory, you remove Demi-Bahamut and what are you left with? Oh right yeah, Warlock just like the class has been since its release in this game

[Anselmet]

Can someone please explain to me why ffxi is the standard for every class? Drg is drg. What was described to me and what I have seen of ffxi drg.... that is not a drg to me. A drg for me is Kane Highwind from ffiv or Freya from ffix, which I think we embody way better than ffxi did. As for smn, I know nothing about that class in ffxi, however I do know what other smn feels like in other games and you know what, it does feel like a smn. Like I have heard the argument with just about EVERY class ever that existed in ffxi and now exists in ffxiv that it doesn't feel like the class. And you know what, I am tired of it. Yes, ffxi was a successful mmo, but I remember correctly, we tried to emulate that game far too much in 1.0 and that didn't go swimmingly for us. (I know there are other elements behind why this game originally failed but I really don't care). If anything, we succeed now bc we don't try to emulate everything from a game that is around 15-20 years old. Also, its not the only final fantasy game out there! Bst doesn't only exist in ffxi either, so if this class comes into ffxiv and resembles something closer to Bart or Relm, then oh well! Be happy they made a new class and have fun with it. It's not defiling of a class if it feels fun. And we also don't have to play an homage to a final fantasy game with every class we introduce, either.

I know I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this, but screw ffxi and let ffxiv be ffxiv.

[Eloah]

SMN is literally defined around one off summons.

Exactly. A Summoner summons. Whether they stay or not is besides the point. And you said it yourself, take away the summon and you just have a crappy "BLM wannabe". In all other iterations any Summoner had another set of skills to offset themselves when they weren't summoning.

Don't forget in XI the summons stayed around as well, and performed the same function as the Egis, there was just a larger variety and all were viable. But when the summon had nothing to do, the Summoner became a "BLM wannabe" or WHM, or whatever their sub-job was.

XIV's Summoner is able to summon a "God-like being" to assist them, attack, and provide support to their party, all things that have been present in all iterations.

Can someone please explain to me why ffxi is the standard for every class?.

It's not. For most of the jobs people are open. But because the summons looked "cool" people act like XI, is the only iteration of SMN. As for DRG, I think your good, they just have a stigma about being "floor tanks" but that's played for laughs. They are very respectable in XIV.

[Jonnycbad]

If they make BST a non-limited job, it will probably get a melee version of SMN and have 3 types of pets for Melee, Ranged, Tank like Ifrit/Garuda/Titan. If they make it Limited, then expect BST to solo mobs under 10% HP and "Charm" or "Capture" them to gain the ability to summon them in the future (like Blue Mage spellbook). While your pet is fighting, BST would have a Whip (ranged physical damage) and their own rotational combos probably. Each type of pet would have damage/defense bonuses against other types of mobs not unlike how Blue Magic works--but with pet types. Cloudkin>Waveskin>Vilekin>Seedkin>Beastkin>Scaleskin, Soulkin<>Ashkin, Voidsent<>Elementals

[Lubu_Mykono]

if they introduce Beastmaster I'm guessing Beast Tribe Currencies are going to be used to trade for Jugs for different types of monsters and keep it "Limited" too LOL

[Jonnycbad]

I see BLU/BST/PUP being similar types of limited jobs in that they involve a mini-game of sorts. BLU was defeating mobs and learning spells. BST could be charming/capturing mobs when their HP is low and fighting along-side them (and their each individual unique commands/skills/spells) to defeat things. PUP gather parts from defeating different kinds of mobs and using them as attachments for their Mammet. Different parts would have different effects and enable the Mammet different spells/traits/stats/or combat logic (melee vs healer). There would be a limit to the # of slots you could equip, similar to BLU spells. Each of these 3 limited jobs would have their own solo content (like Masked Carnivale) but balanced for their own unique style of combat.

[Kalise]

Exactly. A Summoner summons. Whether they stay or not is besides the point.

Actually it isn't.

Most iterations of Summoner are where Summons are more costly than regular spells but as a result more powerful.

And you said it yourself, take away the summon and you just have a crappy "BLM wannabe". In all other iterations any Summoner had another set of skills to offset themselves when they weren't summoning.

Yeah, usually some form of White Magic. Since they were a supportive class that were defined around "Summon big bad monster/deity that does a big blast of damage".

Don't forget in XI the summons stayed around as well, and performed the same function as the Egis, there was just a larger variety and all were viable. But when the summon had nothing to do, the Summoner became a "BLM wannabe" or WHM, or whatever their sub-job was.

And in this same post you also go on to mention about how XI shouldn't be used as a yard stick for class design...

XIV's Summoner is able to summon a "God-like being" to assist them, attack, and provide support to their party, all things that have been present in all iterations.

Egi's are far from god-like beings.

Egi's are literally just Carbuncles with some meaningful lore stapled to them (They're supposed to be made out of Primal aether and only summonable when we've been drenched in said Primal's aether from fighting them) but at the end of the day, they're literally just Carbuncles. They're not strong, they're not special, they don't really have particularly notable skills outside Contagion. It's honestly like you just learn Glamours for your Carbuncles (Then, ironically, get a quest to then glamour them into Carbuncles )

Demi-Bahamut is the closest thing to being a "God-like being" because he comes out and he hits like a truck. Firing lasers with Akh Morn to boot.

It's not. For most of the jobs people are open. But because the summons looked "cool" people act like XI, is the only iteration of SMN.

All my comparisons about Summoner are not from XI.

I've never played XI.

I have however played I-X and XII-XIV (I'll get around to playing XV soon...) and some of the spin-off games (Like Dirge of Cerberus, Dissidia etc)

Not once do I recall in those games ever having a Summoner (Or summon skills in general in lieu of a dedicated class) that summoned a crappy minion to deal damage alongside my team. Every summon skill that I recall, was a one shot powerful and flashy skill that either dealt damage to a target(s) or healed/protected a target(s).