Give the possible Eureka 5.X its own weapon, and separate Relic from it

[Kalise]

People don't go into content just for the content, you have to give them a reward for that. It's the same for everything. Remove gear from Savage, and it will be on life support after the first clears.

Then like I said, put another reward at the end. The reward doesn't have to be the Relic, unless that's the only reward with enough pull to get people to do the content.

Which is also a sign that the content sucks.

People do normal raids all the time, even though they can get gear from tomes. Savage has additional draw from having slightly better gear. Is slightly better gear worth grinding out Savage? Not really, unless the content of Raids was actually enjoyed.

Except that, no, not everyone does the relic.

The Relic still has a pull on people. Again, I mentioned that the grind associated with the Relic is already a barrier to push some people away. That's part of what makes the Relic desirable. If everyone got easy peasy Relics then the desire for them would decrease.

There's no reason to add additional barriers by locking Relics behind specific content.

Considering how many people did Eureka despite hating it, just for the relic, it seems priority is a bigger issue for them. Me ? I like the relic, but I only did it because I like Eureka. I would have completely skipped if it was just another tomestone farm ad nauseum like the two previous ones.

"I only did it because I like Eureka. But I wouldn't have done it if it didn't have the Relic"

Oxymoron much?

As I said, put another reward behind Eureka if it needs something to work towards

There's no reason it has to be the Relic. Unless Eureka as content sucks so bad that it's the only way to get people to actually play it, including if they hate the content (Which is contrary to the Yoshida quote you carry in your signature)

Doing it for the reward and finding it fun are not mutually exclusive, but without a good reward fun alone won't keep the content relevant for long.

Yeah, but there's a difference between doing it for the reward because the reward is so enticing that you will do the content regardless of if you like it or not. And then doing it for the reward because you like the content.

For example, I mentioned earlier Savage raiding. Objectively, Savage Raiding gives the best gear in the game.

But not everyone does it, because they don't find it fun and the reward of slightly better gear than they can obtain through other means doesn't have enough pull on them to get them to go through this content they don't find fun.

People farm EX Trials for gear and mounts. But if they didn't find it fun then they wouldn't (They could just wait 2 years and un-Sync them for mounts...) because they can get gear from alternate means.

With Eureka, you have people who hate the content that are going through it purely because of the Relic reward. Yes, there are alternate means to getting gear, but the Relic is unique within an expansion. There is only 1 Relic and only 1 item that is glamorous as the Relic per expansion.

[LaylaTsarra]

Then like I said, put another reward at the end. The reward doesn't have to be the Relic, unless that's the only reward with enough pull to get people to do the content.

The content was designed for relic. The relic wasn't put into the content to make people play it. This obsession with trying to push that line gets pretty old. They didn't design Eureka and then say hey how can we get people to play this, oh, I know lets put a relic weapon in it. There doesn't need to be a separate weapon for Eureka if there is a new one. It's the relic progression that was used in 4.0 and it remains to be seen what they have planned for 5.0.

Complaining about it is fine. You can ask although I would suggest plans are already in full swing for the next relic progression and we'll have to wait and see what they have in mind. Personally I hope it simply isn't a clone/repeat of what we have now but something new.

[Kalise]

The content was designed for relic. The relic wasn't put into the content to make people play it.

Do you have proof of that?

Do you have records of their design team talking about how they want to put this new content around the Relic?

Or are you going off the same information as everyone else?

Which suggests that they looked at Diadem and noticed it failed, so they wanted to figure out a way to draw people to the content even if it sucked. So they put the Relic in there.

They could have put literally any reward at the end of Eureka. I mean, half of the actual content there doesn't even directly reference building your Relic. Like Anemos doesn't say literally a damn thing about any kind of weapon, it just goes on about the weirdness that is Magicite. While your mission is to try and see what happened to the place and potentially find survivors.

With Gerolt being there because...???

Both other Relics where Gerolt needs to build you a weapon because: ARR "You found an ancient weapon and it intrigued him enough to stop making kettles and mend it for you (At the behest of Jalzahn who bribes him with homemade liquor)"/HW "Gerolt is in debt to Rowena and gets stuck helping a kid with his Anima research to pay off his debt"

Both started with the focus of "I need a really good blacksmith to make a unique weapon of legendary proportions".

Rather than being a completely unrelated story until it then became about the weapon and justified Gerolt's involvement. (Though, it was never really explained about the reason these strange crystals you found could be hammered into weapons and make them stronger... You just randomly talk to Gerolt and he lets you upgrade your level 50 equipment into Anemos gear...)

[Reynhart]

(Though, it was never really explained about the reason these strange crystals you found could be hammered into weapons and make them stronger... You just randomly talk to Gerolt and he lets you upgrade your level 50 equipment into Anemos gear...)

Thanks for confirming that you didn't do Eureka till the end (Expected, obviously), and thus, have no clue why the weapons are connected to it, but still complain about how they're not.

[LaylaTsarra]

Do you have proof of that?

Seriously... so you believe they designed Eureka and then later decided to put the relic in it to get people to play it? Ok, live in your little bubble it's fine. I'm not going to argue with you. Let me just say I enjoyed this relic progression immensely and am really happy they did it.

[Reynhart]

Then like I said, put another reward at the end. The reward doesn't have to be the Relic, unless that's the only reward with enough pull to get people to do the content.

There's also no reason to not put the relic in there apart the very personal and thus irrelevant when considering the whole playerbase "I don't like Eureka". Despite what people claim, Relics are niche rewards, completed by a small part of the playerbase, so it makes sense to create a niche content for them. On top of that, Relics are a continuous progression system, so it also makes sense to put it in a content with several instances, instead of putting each part in completely unrelated bits of content or, like in the past, the exact strictly same content, famously ARF for each tome step.

People do normal raids all the time, even though they can get gear from tomes.

Yes, that's because of the weekly cap on tomestones.

Savage has additional draw from having slightly better gear. Is slightly better gear worth grinding out Savage? Not really, unless the content of Raids was actually enjoyed.

You're thinking backwards. You want gear, and fun will keep you motivated to obtain that gear. Not the other way round.

"I only did it because I like Eureka. But I wouldn't have done it if it didn't have the Relic"
Oxymoron much?

No, reading failure on your part since I said nothing about "not doing Eureka if it didn't have the relic", but only "not doing the Relic if I didn't like the method of obtaining it, i.e; Eureka".

There's no reason it has to be the Relic. Unless Eureka as content sucks so bad that it's the only way to get people to actually play it, including if they hate the content (Which is contrary to the Yoshida quote you carry in your signature)

Like I said above, yes, there is, because they're both niche part of the game, and people heavily complained that the Relic didn't have its own content in ARR and HW. And, as I said numerous times, if you suffer though Eureka just for the relic, when it has absolutely no competitive value whatsoever, then you definitely need to re-evaluate your relation with the game.

There is only 1 Relic and only 1 item that is glamorous as the Relic per expansion.

Well, considering Alex Savage gear was heavily popular because it was dyable compared to Alex normal gear, glamour is a concern for it too. But people obviously understood that Savage gear would require Savage Raids. Since it was announced very early that the Relic would be a Eureka weapon, the dots should have been connected…

Or the answer is far more simple than that, and it's that people don't really care about options and would have been perfectly fine with a Eureka weapon if Eureka was fun for them. But since it's not, and a simple "I don't like Eureka" would be met with "Then don't do it", they hide themselves behind "Options and love for all players" even though not all players do the Relics.

[Kalise]

There's also no reason to not put the relic in there apart the very personal and thus irrelevant when considering the whole playerbase "I don't like Eureka". Despite what people claim, Relics are niche rewards, completed by a small part of the playerbase, so it makes sense to create a niche content for them. On top of that, Relics are a continuous progression system, so it also makes sense to put it in a content with several instances, instead of putting each part in completely unrelated bits of content or, like in the past, the exact strictly same content, famously ARF for each tome step.

Except the part when you have niche rewards that are doing fine as they are. Then you also have niche content that you want to make work.

Ideally, the best thing you can do is keep them separate. Since then you will get more relevant feedback about them. Rather than having Eureka feedback being flooded by people who hate the content but feel forced to grind it out to obtain the niche content that they previously worked at.

You're thinking backwards. You want gear, and fun will keep you motivated to obtain that gear. Not the other way round.

That depends on the player. I play games for fun. Just getting gear is not fun. If it was, more people would just Tomestone farm.

Like I said above, yes, there is, because they're both niche part of the game, and people heavily complained that the Relic didn't have its own content in ARR and HW. And, as I said numerous times, if you suffer though Eureka just for the relic, when it has absolutely no competitive value whatsoever, then you definitely need to re-evaluate your relation with the game.

Well, the thing is, for BOTH previous Relics, I liked farming them. That was part of my content. Farming Relics (Plural, multiple Zodiacs and multiple Animas).

Then one day they decide to instead of having this niche grind that I liked doing as part of my gameplay, they stick it into this crappy Eureka place that I dislike to try and give the crappy content more value.

As such, I have not been suffering through Eureka, but this means that I no longer have my content where I farm for Relics.

Meanwhile, the target audience of Eureka, have mixed feelings about the Relic, some don't like its looks. While others don't care about it either way because they just liked the content (While the reward doesn't actually benefit them in any way during the content either)

Then you get people like you who like Eureka but hate Relics (In the form they have existed in both previous iterations) whom are adamant about defending Relics in Eureka because it specifically caters to you and only people like you.

Meanwhile, we have threads like these, that involve people who are in the same boat as me, where we ALREADY enjoyed our niche Relic farms but don't like this new niche content Eureka but get our content ripped away and stuck behind Eureka for what purpose?

As I've mentioned multiple times now and being completely overlooked every single time, why exactly does the Relic HAVE to be the reward for Eureka? There's limitless options of rewards that would be possible for enticing players to play Eureka, including ones that would actually benefit Eureka players in the content they're enjoying.

If we're just merging niche content for the sake of putting niche content together. Why not go the extra mile? Go stick Eureka behind PvP grind. PvP is niche content. So is Eureka. Stick them both together!

Oh, Gold Saucer is also niche content. Lets put Eureka behind PvP content that is locked behind MGP so you have to do Gold Saucer minigames to access it!

What great and interesting design that wouldn't just upset players who currently liked niche content the way it is! /s

You're thinking backwards. You want gear, and fun will keep you motivated to obtain that gear. Not the other way round.

That depends on the player. I play games for fun. Just getting gear is not fun. If it was, more people would just Tomestone farm.

Like I said above, yes, there is, because they're both niche part of the game, and people heavily complained that the Relic didn't have its own content in ARR and HW. And, as I said numerous times, if you suffer though Eureka just for the relic, when it has absolutely no competitive value whatsoever, then you definitely need to re-evaluate your relation with the game.

Well, the thing is, for BOTH previous Relics, I liked farming them. That was part of my content. Farming Relics (Plural, multiple Zodiacs and multiple Animas).

Then one day they decide to instead of having this niche grind that I liked doing as part of my gameplay, they stick it into this crappy Eureka place that I dislike to try and give the crappy content more value.

As such, I have not been suffering through Eureka, but this means that I no longer have my content where I farm for Relics.

Meanwhile, the target audience of Eureka, have mixed feelings about the Relic, some don't like its looks. While others don't care about it either way because they just liked the content (While the reward doesn't actually benefit them in any way during the content either)

Then you get people like you who like Eureka but hate Relics (In the form they have existed in both previous iterations) whom are adamant about defending Relics in Eureka because it specifically caters to you and only people like you.

Meanwhile, we have threads like these, that involve people who are in the same boat as me, where we ALREADY enjoyed our niche Relic farms but don't like this new niche content Eureka but get our content ripped away and stuck behind Eureka for what purpose?

As I've mentioned multiple times now and being completely overlooked every single time, why exactly does the Relic HAVE to be the reward for Eureka? There's limitless options of rewards that would be possible for enticing players to play Eureka, including ones that would actually benefit Eureka players in the content they're enjoying.

If we're just merging niche content for the sake of putting niche content together. Why not go the extra mile? Go stick Eureka behind PvP grind. PvP is niche content. So is Eureka. Stick them both together!

Oh, Gold Saucer is also niche content. Lets put Eureka behind PvP content that is locked behind MGP so you have to do Gold Saucer minigames to access it!

What great and interesting design that wouldn't just upset players who currently liked niche content the way it is! /s

Thanks for confirming that you didn't do Eureka till the end (Expected, obviously), and thus, have no clue why the weapons are connected to it, but still complain about how they're not.

Please tell me where in Anemos it explains why Gerolt is there at all or where it mentions why your gear is upgradable with the random crystals you have found.

Sure, if LATER he shows up after you LATER find out how weapons are connected to the place, that would make sense. But he's there right from the get go but is barely involved until Pyros.

[Reynhart]

Ideally, the best thing you can do is keep them separate. Since then you will get more relevant feedback about them.

No because you split your playerbase into two directions. Eureka is a "grind" content and the relic are "grind" rewards. If you separate those two, you'll have less grinders that will do the relic because their main appeal will be Eureka and less grinders who will do Eureka because their main appeal is the Relic.

Rather than having Eureka feedback being flooded by people who hate the content but feel forced to grind it out to obtain the niche content that they previously worked at.

Yes, people that go all their way to explain why the past relics weren't grindy compared to that (False), and thus why Eureka is painful, how farming tens of thousands of tomestone was refreshing and innovative (Seriously ?), or how past relics were more widespread because it contained tome farming instead of specific content (Apparently false, but numbers are unclear)...

That depends on the player. I play games for fun. Just getting gear is not fun.

I said nothing about "just" getting gear. But I'm pretty sure you would not run each floor of Alphascape several times per week if it wasn't for the loot at the end.

If it was, more people would just Tomestone farm.

More people ? You mean more than everyone who doesn't raid or grind, which represent the ridiculously largest part of the playerbase ?

Well, the thing is, for BOTH previous Relics, I liked farming them. That was part of my content. Farming Relics (Plural, multiple Zodiacs and multiple Animas).

Well, I didn't but the design choice is deeper that simply "They like/don't like". SE switched the universal currency to a universal weapon, excluding any challenging content of it, and put the grindy weapon in its own grindy content so that you would do both tomefarming and this new content, instead of tome farming for everything, a formula on which people have expressed frequent issue throughout the years .

Meanwhile, the target audience of Eureka, have mixed feelings about the Relic, some don't like its looks.

Well, since you'll never reach a universal consensus on item looks, it really doesn't matter at all. Personally, I think most Lux looked completely bland and uninteresting.

Then you get people like you who like Eureka but hate Relics (In the form they have existed in both previous iterations) whom are adamant about defending Relics in Eureka because it specifically caters to you and only people like you.

Well, for me, it's more complicated than that. It's not just that I liked this relic better, but, that, strategically, if all valuable items are shoehorned into tome farming, you'll reach a point where you can't offer any new content, because tome farming will always take the past of least resistance, and thus people will keep packing in expert dungeons. Personally, I would not have put Tomesones reward in Eureka to give people incentive to do both.

There's limitless options of rewards that would be possible for enticing players to play Eureka, including ones that would actually benefit Eureka players in the content they're enjoying.

Well, you have a few of them too...and the final weaponc is actually useful when doing Eureka.

If we're just merging niche content for the sake of putting niche content together. Why not go the extra mile? Go stick Eureka behind PvP grind. PvP is niche content. So is Eureka. Stick them both together!

I don't know, maybe you miss the part where people complained that the relic only reused existing content instead of having their own...the very reason why Eureka was created in the first place.

Please tell me where in Anemos it explains why Gerolt is there at all

We know why Gerolt is there, the same stupid reason he was involed in both past relics...It really makes you wonder how much money he owns Rowena. :s
And he can upgrade your gear because he's a good blacksmith and already did it twice.

or where it mentions why your gear is upgradable with the random crystals you have found.

In Anemos, you don't even know what "Eureka" is, why the Aether is so disrupted, and yes, why killing mobs there crystallize part of the zone's aether. You don't have all revelations at the beginning of any story, you know ?

Or, instead of trying to piss off a particular playerbase we go back to earlier in the thread and entertain the idea of having multiple ways to work on the Relic.

Then I want my alternate way of obtaining Savage Gear, PvP Gear, Deep Dungeon gear, etc...because I'd like to glamour them, but I don't want to be "forced" into doing their content.

Do you have proof of that?

Do you have records of their design team talking about how they want to put this new content around the Relic?

Y: Up until now, in the theme park called FFXIV land, we went to various attractions through the Zodiac and Anima Weapon quest lines, but I think a lot of people are getting tired of that system. We are also reaching our limits on how to create routes to go to those attractions, so we thought that we might as well make the weapon quest one of the attractions, as well, rather than it being a tool to see attractions. It will still be a “time to win” based attraction like Zodiac and Anima Weapons. That’s why we thought that the name “Forbidden land” fits it quite well… (laugh). In FFIII, Eureka is a land that is sealed with powerful magic and weapons, so in order to keep that charm point, we want players to put in hours and effort into making it. With that in our minds, we thought we should bring it up by a level, so we made Eureka.

From the same source as my signature

[Jandor]

As I said, put another reward behind Eureka if it needs something to work towards

There's no reason it has to be the Relic.

Eureka doesn't have to have the relic. Neither though, do you.

How about this, we get the relic for Eureka 2, and you get the consolation prize weapon you're trying to palm off on us?

[Kalise]

Eureka doesn't have to have the relic. Neither though, do you.

How about this, we get the relic for Eureka 2, and you get the consolation prize weapon you're trying to palm off on us?

Or, instead of trying to piss off a particular playerbase we go back to earlier in the thread and entertain the idea of having multiple ways to work on the Relic.

That way Eureka players can still work towards it without it being the sole way to work on it.

With Eureka having its own "Consolation prize" unique to it in addition.

Or is it too upsetting to allow other people access to your favourite toys without having a tantrum that after being catered for by having the Relic locked behind your content and your content only that other people might still want to have their Relic from content they enjoy?

The Relic has been a focus of my gameplay throughout 2.0 and 3.0. The only reason it hasn't been my focus in 4.0 is because it's stuck behind content I abhor. Why? So people who like this niche content of Eureka get a shiny they can feel good about, at the expense of everyone who previously liked collecting Relics through the means at which they collected them previously.

Logically, it should go back to 2.0/3.0 ways and have Eureka stand on its own merits.

However, that's not particularly inclusive. So why not have multiple ways to farm towards a Relic. Or at the very least, have the Relic require multiple types of content so that everyone ends up having a stage of the relic in content they enjoy (At the cost of having some stages that they might not enjoy).

You know, thinking about others instead of crying about how you NEED to have the Relic from your favourite content and wouldn't be happy with anything else by calling it a "Consolation Prize"?