What is a "bad player" to you?

[Lilseph]

You'd think this would be common sense.

But in all fairness this isn't just a healer DPSing issue. It's also tanks that only ever sit in tank stance, and DPS that don't use any sort of mitigation tools at all.

Many times in this thread it was mentioned that the criticism extends to every job not using their toolkits for the group's benefit, but some people insist on taking it to extremes or just focus on the healer's DPS. It's baffling.

[Keizerwilson]

My point was your claim that even sync they were meant to be bulldozed.This is simply not true.This was the not the original design.
Devs not forseeing how it would work at higher levels is what has led to this.
Im not defending the guy you quoted just stating that your anology of them being meant to be bulldozed is incorrect and it can still pack a punch to newer players in a party who arent over geared or lvl synced regardless on The person you questioned's personal stats.

Those fights were also designed for i55-70 gear. Lync sync now puts you at what? i120-130? It really shouldn't be an issue.

[Misutoraru]

Or you could try using cooldowns? Also, every tank has an invuln skill at 50.

I have use everything to keep me alive to a point that they just too focus to burn down all the add and forget their priority
it am bringing this up is because i have see a few newbies got so much pressure from this mind set
and when i told them they could just heal if they are not comfortable, they told me they got the impression from the forum of not doing enough dps as heal is an big issue
I too encouraging heal to dps when they feel they could, but it is very important that what message we are delivering, it is a learning curve they should only do it when they feel more comfortable of giving out dps when can handle the heal

[hydralus]

Basically, if you're spamming cure and overhealing by 200% you'll get the job done but you're not 'good', per se. If you're standing around for several cooldowns at a time waiting for healing to matter, you're inconsiderate. If you let someone die because you made a mistake (forgot a tankbuster was incoming, ran out of oGCDs, generally not paying attention) then that's forgivable. If you're consistently letting people die, you're a bad healer. If you are pulling people's ass out of the frying pan in a fight that isn't going well or you're keeping people alive while pumping out at least SOME damage then you're golden.

[Mixt]

Titan can easily do 2-3k damage to a tank in tank stance with a cooldown when he uses his tank buster.
Plus the damage from autos.
Plus the damage from his jumps that shrinks the arena.
Plus the AOE stomps.

Synced to i130, which gives a tank less than 10k hp (Unless you are a warrior in tank stance)

You try staying alive without a single heal the whole fight, then you can talk about how dying makes you bad.

Same deal with Ravana, be the MT and go the entire fight without a single heal going out, see how far you get before facetanking the floor.

Been there, had that happen, apparantly that makes me bad.
Off course, under the same logic anyone who has ever died to unavoidable raid wide damage is also bad, after all, they shouldn't need healing to stay alive.

...Someone is totally going to interpret this in the worst possible way aren't they?
That's how it always goes, say A, people insist you said X, get lynched because X is offensive even though that's not at all what you meant.

[Metalwrath]

Those fights were also designed for i55-70 gear. Lync sync now puts you at what? i120-130? It really shouldn't be an issue.

It puts you at i130 if you have that ilvl gear or above.Not if you dont.
A lot of lvl 50 new players can still be running around in the af gear which is much lower ilvl.
Considering the amount of threads are there about undergeared players its not uncommon.Im not talking about lvl 70 players all queuing here.

[Metalwrath]

If you're telling me that groups are still having trouble with titan hard mode NOW, I mean come on. I honestly don't know why you responded to nitpick about a point I made that was not really the point of my post, but yes even synced, Titan HM and Ravana HM are super super easy these days. I mean MAYBE if you have 8 friends all in level 50/60 grey gear would there be a problem, but not in DF most of the time.

Edit: Also yes, I bring up healers not DPSing, but yes other roles can be bad if they play at a minimum as well. AKA tanks only using threat combos, or DPS not using AOE.

I am telling you teams can struggle if they arent at the high ilvl cap,Im not trying to nitpick.Just dont assume all teams these days are going to be full of lvl synced or maximum cap ilvl 50 gear.We've seen a lot of new players migrate to the game the last few months and a lot of them deffintly are not fully kitted out in max gear.

[cicatriz313]

Titan can easily do 2-3k damage to a tank in tank stance with a cooldown when he uses his tank buster.
Plus the damage from autos.
Plus the damage from his jumps that shrinks the arena.
Plus the AOE stomps.

Synced to i130, which gives a tank less than 10k hp (Unless you are a warrior in tank stance)

You try staying alive without a single heal the whole fight, then you can talk about how dying makes you bad.

Same deal with Ravana, be the MT and go the entire fight without a single heal going out, see how far you get before facetanking the floor.

Been there, had that happen, apparantly that makes me bad.
Off course, under the same logic anyone who has ever died to unavoidable raid wide damage is also bad, after all, they shouldn't need healing to stay alive.

...Someone is totally going to interpret this in the worst possible way aren't they?
That's how it always goes, say A, people insist you said X, get lynched because X is offensive even though that's not at all what you meant.

No one is misinterpreting what you're saying, you're just saying something that barely happens. Just because you had an instance or two of healers who refuse to heal doesn't mean that saying healers should dps will make EVERY healer into a dps machine. No one is calling you a bad player if you die because a healer doesn't heal you, either. So not sure where that came from. Healers can be bad players if they sit around doing nothing when they could be dpsing, since everyone is already topped off or will live in the next bit of damage. Tanks can be bad tanks when they spam rage of halone combos instead of doing damage combos while having a large enough threat lead. Dps can be bad players when they single target dps when there are 5+ monsters surrounding the tank. And in the same vein people can be "bad players" community-wise if they're rude to players who do this instead of trying to help them out. So yes, Titan does damage. But healers will heal 99% of the time and it's a cakewalk, even with healer dps thrown in.

[cicatriz313]

I am telling you teams can struggle if they arent at the high ilvl cap,Im not trying to nitpick.Just dont assume all teams these days are going to be full of lvl synced or maximum cap ilvl 50 gear.We've seen a lot of new players migrate to the game the last few months and a lot of them deffintly are not fully kitted out in max gear.

At this point in the game's lifecycle, people will almost always have a majority of ilevel synced players in a group for old content. Even if not, players are given like 110? gear at level 50 while doing the msq. I imagine the same (being given gear appropriate for 60) is true for level 60 but I have no idea. So sure, there might be a few green leaves in there, but overall they will have people overgeared who can bumrush the fights. Honestly I'm only responding to you at this point because you're still arguing the same points even though it's completely irrelevant to the topic.

[Ilan]

You also realize that I'm talking about times where if you pulled that many trash then the healer wouldn't have time to be DPSing?

Or do all healers pump out massive HPS 100% of the time so get to freely DPS?

I'm not against healers DPSing. I think it's fine.

It's just that, a lot of healers (Mostly Savage Raid geared ones ) make runs last way longer by trying to push their DPS on trash instead of actually facilitating the Tank to pull more trash packs and at worse, cause wipes because they were too busy being in the middle of a Holy cast to actually save the Tank.

If you're doing content where the Tank can pull wall to wall while the Healer is spamming out DPS heavily, sure, go ahead and do it. But it's not all content that allows that and when it is, it's often content that hard blocks actual mass pulling with roadblocks so you're only got like 1-2 packs you can get... With Tanks only having 1 CD that can let them ignore damage for a period of time and heck, Hallowed Ground ideally will only be able to be used ONCE in an entire dungeon, since it shouldn't last much more than its 7 minute CD.

But often, it's not the case. In my experience anyway. The healer won't let mass pulls happen. They instead want to just push out ST nukes on single packs and even then it can be dicey for the Tank always questioning "Will I actually get healed? Or am I gonna need to use Clemency/Inner Beast spam?" this is where the "Pathetic" healer damage comes from. By the fact that they just want to ST nuke (To say nothing of the fact that this also happens in Roulettes that use content below the level that healers get AoE's) instead of thinking "Maybe if I made the tank feel like he can actually take more packs, he'll do so and then the DPS will melt everything down"

Healer ST spam will not ever make a dent compared to DPS vs mass packs but many healers think otherwise.

Uhm a good tank doesn't pull more than he is able to survive because he knows his limits and a good healer will always dps if the tank is not insanly undergeared or doesn't use any cooldowns. Most of the times its enough to apply hots on the tank to be able to dps a while. You know healers have OGCD healing skills that are their "oh shit buttons" and any decent healer will most likely use them to be able to dps longer and keep the tank alive.

Healers who know how to play and dps are 100% not making your dungeon run longer, its the bad dps players that you have with you. Stop spreading this nonsense.

Btw. any dungeon in expert or level 70 roulette is so easy to heal that most healers could fall asleep in there if they are not dpsing because the amount of mobs you can pull is limited anyway.