What is a "bad player" to you?

[HyoMinPark]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

You realize if the healer was also DPSing those trash packs, they will net anywhere between 5,000 to 8,000 DPS on average, right? I've even broken 10,000 on a large trash pack before with Holy/Gravity spam. You call healer DPS pathetic, but Holy/Gravity can do more than a DPS' AOE.

[Kalise]

You realize if the healer was also DPSing those trash packs, they will net anywhere between 5,000 to 8,000 DPS on average, right? I've even broken 10,000 on a large trash pack before with Holy/Gravity spam. You call healer DPS pathetic, but Holy/Gravity can do more than a DPS' AOE.

You also realize that I'm talking about times where if you pulled that many trash then the healer wouldn't have time to be DPSing?

Or do all healers pump out massive HPS 100% of the time so get to freely DPS?

I'm not against healers DPSing. I think it's fine.

It's just that, a lot of healers (Mostly Savage Raid geared ones ) make runs last way longer by trying to push their DPS on trash instead of actually facilitating the Tank to pull more trash packs and at worse, cause wipes because they were too busy being in the middle of a Holy cast to actually save the Tank.

If you're doing content where the Tank can pull wall to wall while the Healer is spamming out DPS heavily, sure, go ahead and do it. But it's not all content that allows that and when it is, it's often content that hard blocks actual mass pulling with roadblocks so you're only got like 1-2 packs you can get... With Tanks only having 1 CD that can let them ignore damage for a period of time and heck, Hallowed Ground ideally will only be able to be used ONCE in an entire dungeon, since it shouldn't last much more than its 7 minute CD.

But often, it's not the case. In my experience anyway. The healer won't let mass pulls happen. They instead want to just push out ST nukes on single packs and even then it can be dicey for the Tank always questioning "Will I actually get healed? Or am I gonna need to use Clemency/Inner Beast spam?" this is where the "Pathetic" healer damage comes from. By the fact that they just want to ST nuke (To say nothing of the fact that this also happens in Roulettes that use content below the level that healers get AoE's) instead of thinking "Maybe if I made the tank feel like he can actually take more packs, he'll do so and then the DPS will melt everything down"

Healer ST spam will not ever make a dent compared to DPS vs mass packs but many healers think otherwise.

[Penthea]

It's just that, a lot of healers (Mostly Savage Raid geared ones ) make runs last way longer by trying to push their DPS on trash instead of actually facilitating the Tank to pull more trash packs and at worse, cause wipes because they were too busy being in the middle of a Holy cast to actually save the Tank.

Sorry I am going to correct you here. Any healer worth their salt would never completely drop healing because they're too obsessed with dps to the point of greatly endangering the group. Likely the healers you meet who do this are tryhards who play like this because it's the meta but they're unaware that this sort of playstyle requires certain conditions to be truly effective. Such as having a well geared tank who manages defensive cds properly, dps class players who dish out good numbers, and everyone generally avoiding taking damage.

Real raiders can read a combat situation very well, and they will adapt to what they're presented with. They'll go ham on dps if it's safe to. The ones who cause deaths or wipes are unable to judge the situation properly. Or they don't even think to. Or in some cases they think it's beneath them to play in any other manner...which is just sad.

[Keizerwilson]

You also realize that I'm talking about times where if you pulled that many trash then the healer wouldn't have time to be DPSing?

Or do all healers pump out massive HPS 100% of the time so get to freely DPS?

I'm not against healers DPSing. I think it's fine.

It's just that, a lot of healers (Mostly Savage Raid geared ones ) make runs last way longer by trying to push their DPS on trash instead of actually facilitating the Tank to pull more trash packs and at worse, cause wipes because they were too busy being in the middle of a Holy cast to actually save the Tank.

If you're doing content where the Tank can pull wall to wall while the Healer is spamming out DPS heavily, sure, go ahead and do it. But it's not all content that allows that and when it is, it's often content that hard blocks actual mass pulling with roadblocks so you're only got like 1-2 packs you can get... With Tanks only having 1 CD that can let them ignore damage for a period of time and heck, Hallowed Ground ideally will only be able to be used ONCE in an entire dungeon, since it shouldn't last much more than its 7 minute CD.

But often, it's not the case. In my experience anyway. The healer won't let mass pulls happen. They instead want to just push out ST nukes on single packs and even then it can be dicey for the Tank always questioning "Will I actually get healed? Or am I gonna need to use Clemency/Inner Beast spam?" this is where the "Pathetic" healer damage comes from. By the fact that they just want to ST nuke (To say nothing of the fact that this also happens in Roulettes that use content below the level that healers get AoE's) instead of thinking "Maybe if I made the tank feel like he can actually take more packs, he'll do so and then the DPS will melt everything down"

Healer ST spam will not ever make a dent compared to DPS vs mass packs but many healers think otherwise.

I ran Ghimlyt earlier with three randoms and we had about 13000k group DPS. This group also took 25 mins to clear the dungeon.

I then ran Ghimlyt with two other members from my static (including a savage geared BiS healer) we had 21000k group DPS. This group cleared the dungeon in 13 minutes.

The random tank was also doing large pulls. You can do both. I'm not sure why you insist on this dichotomy of it being one or the other.

[Kalise]

I ran Ghimlyt earlier with three randoms and we had about 13000k group DPS.

I then ran Ghimlyt with two other members from my static (including a savage geared BiS healer) we had 21000k group DPS.

The random tank was also doing large pulls. You can do both. I'm not sure why you insist on this dichotomy of it being one or the other.

Because that's what I experience.

Some pulls I see healers having to use oGCD's and every available GCD on heals. It's kind of hard for them to be doing DPS and healing at the same time when they haven't got any spare GCD's to spend on their damage skills.

Sure, there are some dungeons that are easier than others where you can slack on healing. But it's not all of them. In my experience at least.

So I don't judge people who do focus on healing. Especially since often, those are my faster runs because more mass pulls than otherwise.

I think it's a toxic attitude to be expecting literally every healer to be a savage geared BiS healer terms of capability and gear level.

Same for expecting every tank to be able to live through everything and let the healer go ham while still mass pulling.

Yes, ideally, Healers should try and push out damage. But not every group is the same. Some take more damage, some make mistakes and get hit by things (Especially mDPS like to stand in all the yellow areas when mass pulling >.>). While some feature literally BiS geared players that make runs much easier and give much more lenience for pushing out DPS.

[cicatriz313]

It's funny how people who are defending healing only healers are making it out to be so black and white. Obviously if you're under geared it's not like people expect you to throw out tons of dps. The problem is anyone can throw out some dps period. Like some dps even helps with healing Aka Swiftcasting holy or throwing out shadowflare. You're meant to do both, that was the entire reason for them having damage scale off of kind and taking off cleric stance. The fact that people are still arguing this point is crazy to me.

[Ilan]

You also realize that I'm talking about times where if you pulled that many trash then the healer wouldn't have time to be DPSing?

Or do all healers pump out massive HPS 100% of the time so get to freely DPS?

I'm not against healers DPSing. I think it's fine.

It's just that, a lot of healers (Mostly Savage Raid geared ones ) make runs last way longer by trying to push their DPS on trash instead of actually facilitating the Tank to pull more trash packs and at worse, cause wipes because they were too busy being in the middle of a Holy cast to actually save the Tank.

If you're doing content where the Tank can pull wall to wall while the Healer is spamming out DPS heavily, sure, go ahead and do it. But it's not all content that allows that and when it is, it's often content that hard blocks actual mass pulling with roadblocks so you're only got like 1-2 packs you can get... With Tanks only having 1 CD that can let them ignore damage for a period of time and heck, Hallowed Ground ideally will only be able to be used ONCE in an entire dungeon, since it shouldn't last much more than its 7 minute CD.

But often, it's not the case. In my experience anyway. The healer won't let mass pulls happen. They instead want to just push out ST nukes on single packs and even then it can be dicey for the Tank always questioning "Will I actually get healed? Or am I gonna need to use Clemency/Inner Beast spam?" this is where the "Pathetic" healer damage comes from. By the fact that they just want to ST nuke (To say nothing of the fact that this also happens in Roulettes that use content below the level that healers get AoE's) instead of thinking "Maybe if I made the tank feel like he can actually take more packs, he'll do so and then the DPS will melt everything down"

Healer ST spam will not ever make a dent compared to DPS vs mass packs but many healers think otherwise.

Uhm a good tank doesn't pull more than he is able to survive because he knows his limits and a good healer will always dps if the tank is not insanly undergeared or doesn't use any cooldowns. Most of the times its enough to apply hots on the tank to be able to dps a while. You know healers have OGCD healing skills that are their "oh shit buttons" and any decent healer will most likely use them to be able to dps longer and keep the tank alive.

Healers who know how to play and dps are 100% not making your dungeon run longer, its the bad dps players that you have with you. Stop spreading this nonsense.

Btw. any dungeon in expert or level 70 roulette is so easy to heal that most healers could fall asleep in there if they are not dpsing because the amount of mobs you can pull is limited anyway.