What is a "bad player" to you?

[Bright-Flower]

I want to start off with saying that I don't bother healers or tell them what to do in the game (unless they are missing a mechanic). When I see a healer who's just standing around I'll either drop or just keep going because I imagine if they're standing around at 70 they simply don't care to utilize half of their skill kit. That's their choice, I accept it. (Heck, it's half the reason I play a healer so often is because then I know the healer will be as active as possible. The other half is because I enjoy it so much) It's clearly a better option to use the spare time to increase outgoing damage than to do literally nothing but wait.

I don't think we should be basing things off what you 'must' do but what you 'can' do. I try to improve my damage as a DPS and using the right mitigation skills at the right time for a tank as well, but there are plenty of people who won't and things will still work out just fine.

As for the games brought up, I understand there's no pure healers in a lot of them. A lot even have builds (In RO I played a semi battle cleric/support so I recall doing damage plenty). There's also MP limitations or simply not having the ability to damage certain creatures. But if you DO have the methods and ample opportunity, why wouldn't you take it? I imagine the answer is 'because I don't want to', which is definitely an answer although a pretty selfish one.

Hell I play a PLD. They're a tank. Do you know how many times I've healed someone else because both healers were dead or simply not paying attention? If I had the mindset that I should be doing my primary role then I should be using that MP to spam flash s'more. Then that person would be dead because while I had the means and the opportunity to assist, I decided 'nah'.

Same, been plenty of times in dungeons as a paladin or occasionally raids where the healer(s) were down. Or heck if one healer's down and the other has to hard cast a res to get healer 2 up I may toss out a clemency or two during that cast. Though if you're spamming flash to the point of running out of MP you're doing something wrong either way. Nobody needs THAT much aoe enmity and it would take a good while.

When I heal, which admittedly isn't that often, I like to throw out damage, just because a lot of the time I'd be bored. Pure healing for me, when things are going normal, is just boring. It's a lot more fun to say, throw excog on the tank, put up my dots, broil, miasma 2, shadowflare then touch up the tank if he needs it during a dungeon pull than to just spam heals. I can understand a new healer needing to give it their full attention until they get used to the role. Or when things hit the fan, especially in raids, needing to spend more time healing and raising etc. But in general when things are going well? I'm bored out of my mind if I just heal.

[Barraind]

So are they bad players even if they keep everyone alive without risking the well-being of the party?

Possibly, yes.

I have grouped with many bad players in this game, and in relatively few cases does it end in not being able to finish (or kicking them and finishing).


Outside savage raids and some ex trials, you can bumble your way through content in this game pressing buttons with your feet if you really felt like it.

The competency bar for dungeon queues requires barely a step over it, being able to take that step doesnt mean you arent still a "bad" player.

I have had people in my FC who I absolutely dreaded when they asked for help, because it turned into a 2-3 times as long as necessary shitfest because they generally couldn't be bothered to give a crap and actually play. "Were healing this, yaaay, dont take damage I'm not going to cast heals"

Clearing content doesnt mean they weren't absolute garbage as a regular way of playing.

[HyoMinPark]

I've been yelled at and harassed

>Claims you’re “yelled at” and “harassed” for not DPSing as a healer.
>Slings insults at anyone who tells you that this is a damage-centric MMO

I don’t think you’re getting “harassed” because of your lack of healer damage... I think it’s probably more so because of your horrible attitude.


But remember kids! Raiders are the toxic players!!!

I'll be anecdotal here (aren't we all anyway) and say I have a few RL friends that play this game.

They work 40 hours, some have college lecture afterwards, some have kids and some have to travel for business.

They play this game to tune out during their downtime and feel like a hero without having to put in too much effort. That's what those dungeons are for. Is 5 minutes really that bothersome to you? If so, why solo queue? Because that's who you're going to run into. People like my friends who only play this game minimally as a hobby make up the majority of the population. They're bad players by whatever standard you want to put, whether it's their numbers they're putting up to just healing fulltime to just grabbing single packs of mobs.

Imagine coming home after busting your tail off from work, school and you want to kick back in the easiest way possible in the game and someone tells you to put more effort in an inconsequential piece of content like a tomestone farming dungeon that has the most trivial of requirements (for a reason) to enter. I'd just laugh at them because that's what harder content is for. You don't have to accept the, "it's not savage" excuse, but that's all the excuse most people need to not go full max in something as irrelevant as a tomestone farming dungeon.

I'm not going to presume what you do outside of this game, but I work just like them, I just have the good fortune to not have to go back to school or have any kids, so I can take the time to learn this game as a hobby.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Nah, I don't have the nerve to be that incredulous over a dungeon.

A lot of us have things like school and jobs and other responsibilities. Some of us even have families with children to take care of.

I have school 4 days out of the week. I spend what free time I do have playing the game to have fun — be it raiding, farming Ex primals, goofing off with friends, whatever. However, my fun shouldn’t involve dealing with players who don’t want to press buttons because “I play this game to relax, chill dude”. Why does their relaxation take more priority over being respectful of their fellow party members? It’s not a very good excuse, in my opinion.

[CarnivalNights]

So plenty of people responded me and I'd like to respond to each of them but I have to do a blanket statement so I don't end up having too long of a post.

My specific example of friends don't play the game to be amazing or decent. They play every once in a while and aren't committed to the game like the rest of us or even someone that's even with them. There's a line that's hard for all of us to come to an agreement to between a casual player and a bad player. Personally, my friends are both. They play when they want, but if another more enticing option comes along (ie: watch a movie with friends, play an even more casual game, etc.). They want to keep Final Fantasy XIV in their computers/PS4. They don't want it in their Youtube/Google search bars, they don't want it on their smart phones, etc. On a Saturday, they'll get up early, go hiking, have lunch with the boys, catch a late movie, then log-in at the end of the day on their PC and sometimes they'll pick FFXIV, if no one wants to play Apex Legends or Madden or Fortnite or etc.

Someone pointed out that I'm enabling bad behavior, but don't get me wrong. I get frustrated too when DPS single target and tanks die because they don't use their Hallowed Ground or whatever, but I'm honestly not an agent of change. Can I make long, lasting impressions in a dungeon/raid/etc? I don't know. Can I make an immediate impression that might or might not carry that player's new found education over? I don't know. Maybe? You've all told me repeatedly about having respect for the rest of the party, but where does that start and end? Just making sure a healer is DPSing is enough or do I also now have the responsibility of having to train an unknown stranger on what I would consider to be proper dungeon etiquette? There are plenty of off-game resources and I shouldn't have to count as a resource. I shouldn't be any individual stranger's keeper in learning this game.

I get it, we all want a better, more skilled community overall, but that requires a lot of re-education and really, it's more on SE at this point that really needs to drive the point home. At the end of it all, we're just individuals and we can't make the same difference and have the same reach as SE does with the community that is most likely a majority of casual/bad/etc players. At the end of the day though, this large majority of bad players will always exist no matter how many resources are available to them. Look at WoW's community. Compared to FFXIV, they have an incredible amount of resources, I mean TONS of stuff. FFXIV's resources pale in comparison. Some of the people in that community have quit their jobs just to develop add-ons full-time (Deadly Boss Mods - Tells you the next mechanic in a fight and what to do) for WoW and there are still people that sit in the fire.

This one post I actually will personally respond to since it's above mine:

A lot of us have things like school and jobs and other responsibilities. Some of us even have families with children to take care of.

I have school 4 days out of the week. I spend what free time I do have playing the game to have fun — be it raiding, farming Ex primals, goofing off with friends, whatever. However, my fun shouldn’t involve dealing with players who don’t want to press buttons because “I play this game to relax, chill dude”. Why does their relaxation take more priority over being respectful of their fellow party members? It’s not a very good excuse, in my opinion.

I'm not talking about raiding or primals. This conversation has nothing to do with that. I've specifically talking about the dungeons used to farm tomestones. No one made any mention of end game content. You goof off with your friends on your own, I have no clue what this has to do with the conversation. This is specifically talking about farming tomestone grind dungeons with ilvl requirements so abysmally low and mechanics telegraphed for days and mobs that die in a few seconds for a reason so that anyone can do them.


I'm sorry, but re-read where my entire post starts off before even responding because you've missed the entire point of conversation.

[HyoMinPark]

So plenty of people responded me and I'd like to respond to each of them but I have to do a blanket statement so I don't end up having too long of a post.

My specific example of friends don't play the game to be amazing or decent. They play every once in a while and aren't committed to the game like the rest of us or even someone that's even with them. There's a line that's hard for all of us to come to an agreement to between a casual player and a bad player. Personally, my friends are both. They play when they want, but if another more enticing option comes along (ie: watch a movie with friends, play an even more casual game, etc.). They want to keep Final Fantasy XIV in their computers/PS4. They don't want it in their Youtube/Google search bars, they don't want it on their smart phones, etc. On a Saturday, they'll get up early, go hiking, have lunch with the boys, catch a late movie, then log-in at the end of the day on their PC and sometimes they'll pick FFXIV, if no one wants to play Apex Legends or Madden or Fortnite or etc.

Someone pointed out that I'm enabling bad behavior, but don't get me wrong. I get frustrated too when DPS single target and tanks die because they don't use their Hallowed Ground or whatever, but I'm honestly not an agent of change. Can I make long, lasting impressions in a dungeon/raid/etc? I don't know. Can I make an immediate impression that might or might not carry that player's new found education over? I don't know. Maybe? You've all told me repeatedly about having respect for the rest of the party, but where does that start and end? Just making sure a healer is DPSing is enough or do I also now have the responsibility of having to train an unknown stranger on what I would consider to be proper dungeon etiquette? There are plenty of off-game resources and I shouldn't have to count as a resource. I shouldn't be any individual stranger's keeper in learning this game.

I wasn’t telling you or your friends that have lives outside of the game that you all are required to teach players (although, if they have questions, if you know the answer, it would be courteous of you to answer them). I was telling you that using the excuse “I have a busy life outside of this game and I play it to relax” to defend lazy play is a poor one to make, and it isn’t an adequate defense for lazy/poor play.

There are plenty of players that don’t play the game to raid or do any sort of bleeding edge content. But that doesn’t mean that they want to deal with lazy party members in their parties. That doesn’t mean that they themselves actively choose to only halfway participate in content, regardless of what it is.

I'm not talking about raiding or primals. This conversation has nothing to do with that. I've specifically talking about the dungeons used to farm tomestones. No one made any mention of end game content. You goof off with your friends on your own, I have no clue what this has to do with the conversation. This is specifically talking about farming tomestone grind dungeons with ilvl requirements so abysmally low and mechanics telegraphed for days and mobs that die in a few seconds for a reason so that anyone can do them.

I'm sorry, but re-read where my entire post starts off before even responding because you've missed the entire point of conversation.

I did read your posts. All of them. I’m saying that, like your friends that have lives, I have a life as well, and I log in to do whatever I want to do just like they do. I wasn’t discussing Savage content versus dungeons; it was just a statement of what I log into the game to do on days that I am free to play. What I’m saying is, I don’t want to deal with players that actively choose to play lazily/poorly because “I’ve had a busy day and just want to relax”, regardless of the type of content involved. And there are plenty of players like myself who don’t want to deal with it.

Please re-read my post before even responding because you missed the entire point of what I was saying.

[Deceptus]

>Claims you’re “yelled at” and “harassed” for not DPSing as a healer.
>Slings insults at anyone who tells you that this is a damage-centric MMO

I don’t think you’re getting “harassed” because of your lack of healer damage... I think it’s probably more so because of your horrible attitude.

Or more accurately, they are being asked to use their kit in it's entirety. Healers not doing any dps is like a PLD who just uses flash and possibly just spams aggro combo. Sure, the tank is holding aggro just fine but they're not doing anything remotely what they should be.

In fact, that's my personal definition of "bad". Someone who doesn't use their entire kit.

Tanks who don't use def CD's liberally? Bad.

Healers who don't DPS? Bad.

DPS who don't use aggro reductions, or self heals? Bad

Also, people who can't take honest, constructive criticism. I'm not attacking you personally. I'm asking you not to waste other people's time be it 3 other people in a dungeon, 7 other people in a trial, or 23 other people in a raid.

[Penthea]

I have had people in my FC who I absolutely dreaded when they asked for help, because it turned into a 2-3 times as long as necessary shitfest because they generally couldn't be bothered to give a crap and actually play. "Were healing this, yaaay, dont take damage I'm not going to cast heals"

This wouldn't be because of the absence of healer dps though. You would need an actual dps class to be truly woeful to make an instance last twice as long. Likely both dps players would have to be exceptionally bad. Or auto-attacking while afk.

Or you were dying a lot. Which again wouldn't be a healer dps issue.

The competency bar for dungeon queues requires barely a step over it, being able to take that step doesnt mean you arent still a "bad" player.

Similarly just because you aren't playing your class to its full capabilities does not mean you're bad.

In casual content a pure healer who heals well but does no dps is not a bad healer. In the context of savage this changes because it demands more than just hps from healers, however savage is but a tiny sliver of the content in the game. The vast majority of it is casual. A pure healer in casual content is serviceable. Not good, but they're enough to get the job done without much trouble.

Why is it that we so rarely see tanks getting targeted for not doing dps? I often encounter tanks who seem allergic to dropping tank stance. They just spend their time building up enmity that just gets thrown into nothingness because they long since capped it, and maintain tank stance no matter how little mobs tickle them. Or do they get a free pass because fulfilling their primary role happens to do damage?

And how about dps who act like they have zero support abilities? A lot of these are ogcds so they wouldn't even disrupt their dps. In many cases these actually directly affect healers because by giving them less to heal or more mana to spend, they can do more dps. I suppose dps classes get a free pass because they're...dps?

If we're going to call pure healers bad players because they only focus on their primary role, well then the above tanks and dps I mentioned are bad too.

[AxlStream]

This wouldn't be because of the absence of healer dps though. You would need an actual dps class to be truly woeful to make an instance last twice as long. Likely both dps players would have to be exceptionally bad. Or auto-attacking while afk.

Or you were dying a lot. Which again wouldn't be a healer dps issue.

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

[Penthea]

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

I have met plenty of zero dps healers and the instances didn't take two or three times longer. Not even close.

[Fellgon]

A bad player its a tank who dont undestand thats impossible heal and run at same time, agroo all mobs and espect healer cast time's intant. epic fail.