What is a "bad player" to you?

[AxlStream]

This wouldn't be because of the absence of healer dps though. You would need an actual dps class to be truly woeful to make an instance last twice as long. Likely both dps players would have to be exceptionally bad. Or auto-attacking while afk.

Or you were dying a lot. Which again wouldn't be a healer dps issue.

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

[Penthea]

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

I have met plenty of zero dps healers and the instances didn't take two or three times longer. Not even close.

[Gemina]

I have met plenty of zero dps healers and the instances didn't take two or three times longer. Not even close.

It also wasn't any shorter, was it? Again though, it isn't about making the run shorter. In the case of healing, the faster things die the less you have to heal. High DPS is the numero uno damage mitigation tool in this game. It becomes really important in endgame, even just the NM encounters which are still a moderate step above dungeons, trials, and 24-man. The mechanical difficulty for NM raids and 24-man are about equal I would say, but what makes the 8-man raids more difficult is there are fewer players so reliability on everyone doing their jobs correctly is a lot tighter.

Now lets say you don't participate in this content and just do the required duties to complete the MSQ; you don't suddenly become less of a burden to others by not utilizing your full toolkit. The other members of your group are still putting forth more effort than the heals-only healer because in order to clear the dungeon, mobs need to die and you are doing nothing to help make this happen. This is why the heals-only healer is considered being carried. Sure, without your heals they won't get very far. But think about this: How far would you make it without them?

Team effort is present in ALL content, and there is no disputing your courtesy towards your fellow party members when you contribute to offense.

[Penthea]

It also wasn't any shorter, was it?

No of course not but that doesn't mean that it's common for instances with a zero dps healer to take two or three times longer. Such a statement is a blatant lie. Most healers do dps but most healers are not top tier savage players with BiS gear. Most healers are incapable of pulling enough dps that if they stopped the instance would take several times longer, either due to their own skill, their gear, or the pugs they're landed with demand frequent healing.

For someone to truthfully say "when I do an instance with a low or zero dps healer, it takes two or three times as long" they would have to be playing with exceptional players all the time...or their own dps is so bad that they need even just a generic pug healer's dps to carry them.

In the case of healing, the faster things die the less you have to heal. High DPS is the numero uno damage mitigation tool in this game. It becomes really important in endgame, even just the NM encounters which are still a moderate step above dungeons, trials, and 24-man. The mechanical difficulty for NM raids and 24-man are about equal I would say, but what makes the 8-man raids more difficult is there are fewer players so reliability on everyone doing their jobs correctly is a lot tighter.

Now lets say you don't participate in this content and just do the required duties to complete the MSQ; you don't suddenly become less of a burden to others by not utilizing your full toolkit. The other members of your group are still putting forth more effort than the heals-only healer because in order to clear the dungeon, mobs need to die and you are doing nothing to help make this happen. This is why the heals-only healer is considered being carried. Sure, without your heals they won't get very far. But think about this: How far would you make it without them?

Team effort is present in ALL content, and there is no disputing your courtesy towards your fellow party members when you contribute to offense.

I completely agree with all of this. I just don't agree with the idea that a zero dps healer outside of savage is automatically assumed bad regardless of their healing ability. Especially when tanks and dps are rarely scrutinised in the same manner for their lack of involvement with their secondary roles. And especially when some of these tanks and dps are the ones criticising healers for not doing enough dps. The hypocrisy drives me mad.

I don't approve of zero dps healers. I rarely speak up when I encounter them outside of savage because a lot of people don't take kindly to criticism no matter how small, and I frankly don't want to invite drama if I don't have to. I recall saying something about it once, and it was because I died every time I got caught in The Sable Price in The Aery. However a lot of the blame is also on the other dps because their damage was low and they were slow to react.

Context matters when judging people. If I see a zero dps healer who is healing a lot because the group demands it, and I know if I was healing I still could insert dps, I don't get annoyed. Why? Because they're clearly pumping effective numbers somewhere. If I see a zero dps healer just standing around doing nothing for ages because the group doesn't need healing, then I get annoyed. Why? Because they're doing literally nothing. I get more annoyed when someone does nothing than when someone is playing sub-optimally yet are clearly putting in effort. There's also the context as to what content you're in. I get far less annoyed about a zero dps healer in Brayflox normal than in Ala Mhigo. And if the player has a sprout or returner tag, I'll be more forgiving than usual.

But in ex and savage I have no interest in playing with a healer who doesn't do dps during healing downtime. That content is where I reserve my harshest judgement because it demands much more than just fulfilling your primary role. In casual content I'm not overly concerned about what others do as long as things die in a timely manner without incident.

[Kalise]

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

[Sieben79]

Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

Um, no. I outdps as whm or scholar most of the generic dutyfinder players on big pulls and heal the tank (even the dps if they take damage) on the fly.

Also just do the math: for example

Tank: ~4k
Healer: ~3k
DPS: ~6k
DPS~6k

19k group dps is more than 16k

[Kalise]

Um, no. I outdps as whm or scholar most of the generic dutyfinder players on big pulls and heal the tank (even the dps if they take damage) on the fly.

Also just do the math: for example

Tank: ~4k
Healer: ~3k
DPS: ~6k
DPS~6k

19k group dps is more than 16k

What is better, doing 19k DPS to 1 trash pack at a time, or doing 16k to 5 trash packs at a time?

80k group DPS is more than 19k.

I'm not saying that there isn't content where level scaling means that you can keep the tank alive with just a regen/adlo/aspected benefic every 10 seconds even against mass pulls, but there's far more content where tanks will need considerable healing even if level sync'd and popping CD's when mass pulling.

To which actually healing so the party doesn't wipe and so the tank can mass pull for the actual DPS to actually DPS many things is often far more efficient than spamming your ST nukes and healing "On the fly"

By all means, spam DPS against the bosses. They generally don't really do much threatening damage nor can they be exploited such as mass pulling.

But all of my fast runs have been from competent healers that know when to stop attempting to push out their mediocre DPS and focus on allowing the Tank to go ham on the big pulls.

[Sieben79]

What is better, doing 19k DPS to 1 trash pack at a time, or doing 16k to 5 trash packs at a time?

80k group DPS is more than 19k.

Then please add 16k damage fromhealers on top of your 80k.

96k > 80k, or I'm wrong?

Your fault here is: If you leave one source of damage out of your calculation, it will be always less than if you combine all. It doesn't matter what numbers you put in. That's why I was just putting numbers for a single mob in my first post. It doesn't matter if it's 1 or 10 enemies.

[Gemina]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

From my experience, most DF tanks don't care about the capabilities of their healers and mass pull anyway. Many of them do it without checking the gear of their mates, don't ask the healer if he/she is ok with it, and don't use any mitigation CDs. IOW, their own safety and the safety of the group is a non-determining factor. If the healer can't hang and they wipe, then they ease up. It is not difficult for a healer to add offensive skills while also keeping you alive. I would know. I've been doing it for three years, and many other healers even longer than that.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Vote to have this healer kicked. You can even report them because everyone is obligated to perform their role in duties, and if they aren't healing you then this is totally a reportable offense.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

Pathetic? Really? Ever hear of Assize, Holy, Earthly Star, Gravity, Miasma II and Bane? These AoE healer abilities MELT mob packs, and Assize, ES, and Miasma II have no %reduction based on number of mobs. And the more mobs there are, the more damage they do. These abilities are what ramp up healer DPS because their single target sucks for days and serve as filler for when they have nothing else to do. Rest assured, mob packs are going to die MUCH faster when healers use their AoE offensive skills. This is an undisputable fact.

[Keizerwilson]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

A good healer can heal thru mass pulls, and DPS at the same time. It's not a one or another thing.