What is a "bad player" to you?

[CarnivalNights]

No.

I meant the dungeon can take up to 90 min and still be cleared. I didn't imply that the healer contribution would make such an absurd difference. My point was that contribution matters, using your full toolkit is something that you should get used to, no matter what role you play. If you can shave 5 min off a run? Then why don't you do it? It adds up. Everyone pushing their DPS helps the party as a whole. You can skip phases that force a downtime, you can kill things faster before the tank runs out of CDs, you can help the melee DPS specifically to go ham on AoE damage and since everyone is helping, things would die faster before they run out of resources. You can even carry said DPS not contributing as much as they should.

See? This is my issue right here. Everyone is "memememe' and don't even think or they completely oversee the fact that their contribution is helping the group and, ultimately, yourself. Lack of teamwork was repeatedly mentioned here as a trait of a bad player.

Like I said, I'm not your enemy, I'm not disagreeing with you, but if a healer won't DPS, that's the least heinous thing I've ever seen in a dungeon, especially at max level. If a healer isn't healing, I'm not going to stop in the middle of the dungeon and lecture them on how to play.

It's a dungeon, I don't care. If this is end game content, then we have a different conversation. Your anger right now, is focused on the wrong person and direction.

[Lilseph]

Like I said, I'm not your enemy, I'm not disagreeing with you, but if a healer won't DPS, that's the least heinous thing I've ever seen in a dungeon, especially at max level. If a healer isn't healing, I'm not going to stop in the middle of the dungeon and lecture them on how to play.

It's a dungeon, I don't care. If this is end game content, then we have a different conversation. Your anger right now, is focused on the wrong person and direction.

Guess tones don't translate well into text. By no means I'm angry, I was just correcting something you cherry picked from my post. Also, the message goes to everyone, not just you. Because what you said, may be a question or a reply that some other user may have as well. Happy to clarify if there are blurry points in my arguments.

Personally and with all due respect, I'm not a huge fan of the "this is not savage" excuse for not using your tools. I am talking about all the jobs when I say that they should use most if not all of their toolkits. As a personal experience, it's not that it matters too much, I do politely ask the healers to DPS in dungeons if I see they are either standing still or spamming cures on me for no reason. While I'm running to the next pack I type: "Hey (name), feel free to DPS, I don't require much healing so you can go ham". Most of the time I get an "ok" and they start doing it. Too much, too little, I don't care, join us with the contribution. This is giving healer as an example because it's the topic we're discussing the most, but it also applies to any job with skills and utility that can benefit the group one way or another.

[CarnivalNights]

Guess tones don't translate well into text. By no means I'm angry, I was just correcting something you cherry picked from my post. Also, the message goes to everyone, not just you. Because what you said, may be a question or a reply that some other user may have as well. Happy to clarify if there are blurry points in my arguments.

Personally and with all due respect, I'm not a huge fan of the "this is not savage" excuse for not using your tools. I am talking about all the jobs when I say that they should use most if not all of their toolkits. As a personal experience, it's not that it matters too much, I do politely ask the healers to DPS in dungeons if I see they are either standing still or spamming cures on me for no reason. While I'm running to the next pack I type: "Hey (name), feel free to DPS, I don't require much healing so you can go ham". Most of the time I get an "ok" and they start doing it. Too much, too little, I don't care, join us with the contribution. This is giving healer as an example because it's the topic we're discussing the most, but it also applies to any job with skills and utility that can benefit the group one way or another.

I'll be anecdotal here (aren't we all anyway) and say I have a few RL friends that play this game.

They work 40 hours, some have college lecture afterwards, some have kids and some have to travel for business.

They play this game to tune out during their downtime and feel like a hero without having to put in too much effort. That's what those dungeons are for. Is 5 minutes really that bothersome to you? If so, why solo queue? Because that's who you're going to run into. People like my friends who only play this game minimally as a hobby make up the majority of the population. They're bad players by whatever standard you want to put, whether it's their numbers they're putting up to just healing fulltime to just grabbing single packs of mobs.

Imagine coming home after busting your tail off from work, school and you want to kick back in the easiest way possible in the game and someone tells you to put more effort in an inconsequential piece of content like a tomestone farming dungeon that has the most trivial of requirements (for a reason) to enter. I'd just laugh at them because that's what harder content is for. You don't have to accept the, "it's not savage" excuse, but that's all the excuse most people need to not go full max in something as irrelevant as a tomestone farming dungeon.

I'm not going to presume what you do outside of this game, but I work just like them, I just have the good fortune to not have to go back to school or have any kids, so I can take the time to learn this game as a hobby.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Nah, I don't have the nerve to be that incredulous over a dungeon.

[Lilseph]

.

I don't think that reaching that level of gameplay requires that much investment on the game, that's my opinion. But this discussion is what a bad player is, and if your life is holding you back from being a good player, well, that's nothing I can help you with. RL comes first. However, adding to your anectodal experience, I have friends working, attending college and dealing with kids, yet they perform at an amazing level, they raid and get tiers down. So I think we're even in that department.

Both good and bad players will have to deal with the opposite kind of player on DF. If you don't meet their standards, they will yell at you. If you think they are asking more than you can or are willing to give, you'll be yelling at them. PF is an option for both parties. My opinion about what a bad player is still stands, expressed at the begining of the thread and throughout all our discussion.

If you want a personal answer why I don't queue up with friends it's because they are not always available. I want to kill things fast, so setting a PF will make me lose more time than just queueing up and getting people unwilling to do more than their bare minimum. Both situations are equally frustrating.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Yeah, and it has been working most of the time. Dungeon or not. Hopefully that helps them to take off a bit faster when they get paired up with other players. If you know how to approach them, being polite and all, without losing too much time, they will help you out. Then you have the cocky players that would bite you back with foam in their mouths like the user above. I usually bite the bullet under these circunstances, but at least there was an attempt.

Inb4 I'm not having fun. I'm having fun with many other types of contents in this game. I love it, but I have my opinion and standards when it comes to performance. You'll not see me calling someone bad and harass them over it, I'll request and suggest, depending on the situation. There's no excuse for a BRD to not use refresh for the poor healer's MP, when it takes 1 click and working 40 hours a week shouldn't be an obstacle for it. Mere example.

[Keizerwilson]

I'll be anecdotal here (aren't we all anyway) and say I have a few RL friends that play this game.

They work 40 hours, some have college lecture afterwards, some have kids and some have to travel for business.

They play this game to tune out during their downtime and feel like a hero without having to put in too much effort. That's what those dungeons are for. Is 5 minutes really that bothersome to you? If so, why solo queue? Because that's who you're going to run into. People like my friends who only play this game minimally as a hobby make up the majority of the population. They're bad players by whatever standard you want to put, whether it's their numbers they're putting up to just healing fulltime to just grabbing single packs of mobs.

Imagine coming home after busting your tail off from work, school and you want to kick back in the easiest way possible in the game and someone tells you to put more effort in an inconsequential piece of content like a tomestone farming dungeon that has the most trivial of requirements (for a reason) to enter. I'd just laugh at them because that's what harder content is for. You don't have to accept the, "it's not savage" excuse, but that's all the excuse most people need to not go full max in something as irrelevant as a tomestone farming dungeon.

I'm not going to presume what you do outside of this game, but I work just like them, I just have the good fortune to not have to go back to school or have any kids, so I can take the time to learn this game as a hobby.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Nah, I don't have the nerve to be that incredulous over a dungeon.

I really dislike this kind of mindset.

And I get what you're saying, but once we become indifferent to the playstyles or lack thereof of people we are close to it sort of enables it to continue. I'm pretty sure most of us on here have a life outside of the game, and I don't think having a life outside of the game is an excuse for a lack of effort.

[Bright-Flower]

I'll be anecdotal here (aren't we all anyway) and say I have a few RL friends that play this game.

They work 40 hours, some have college lecture afterwards, some have kids and some have to travel for business.

They play this game to tune out during their downtime and feel like a hero without having to put in too much effort. That's what those dungeons are for. Is 5 minutes really that bothersome to you? If so, why solo queue? Because that's who you're going to run into. People like my friends who only play this game minimally as a hobby make up the majority of the population. They're bad players by whatever standard you want to put, whether it's their numbers they're putting up to just healing fulltime to just grabbing single packs of mobs.

Imagine coming home after busting your tail off from work, school and you want to kick back in the easiest way possible in the game and someone tells you to put more effort in an inconsequential piece of content like a tomestone farming dungeon that has the most trivial of requirements (for a reason) to enter. I'd just laugh at them because that's what harder content is for. You don't have to accept the, "it's not savage" excuse, but that's all the excuse most people need to not go full max in something as irrelevant as a tomestone farming dungeon.

I'm not going to presume what you do outside of this game, but I work just like them, I just have the good fortune to not have to go back to school or have any kids, so I can take the time to learn this game as a hobby.

Would I ever tell them to play better? Nah, I don't have the nerve to be that incredulous over a dungeon.

I get that but on the other hand, when you queue up to play with randoms, you should be putting in an honest effort, not saying 'screw it I want to relax' and not putting the effort in. You say 'don't queue with randoms if you don't want bads' but at the same time...don't queue with randoms if you're going to slack off because you just want to take it easy. Do something solo or form a full group with friends.

I'm not saying they have to have food buffs and 100% optimal rotations and they can't make any mistakes etc, but when you're doing content with other players, you owe it to them to put in some effort. If they want to unwind and not care at all how they play in something single pleyer more power to them. You group up with people, you owe them an honest effort, not just a shrug and a 'I'm tired let me relax.'

There's a phrase I like 'my right to swing my fist ends at the other guy's nose.'

You can put in as little effort you want relaxing when on your own, but when you're grouping with other players, it's no longer about you, it's about the group, and playing poorly just because you're tired or don't have the effort means dragging other people down. You don't need to be perfect. But you really should either put fort the honest effort or else not queue with randoms.