What is a "bad player" to you?

[Enjuden]

Honest question. Players who only want to share parties with people who are experienced and know their class cold, who follow their rotation by the book... why not just use party finder and include a small note that says you prefer to play with very experienced players who are confident in their rotation?

It's not reasonable to expect everyone to play this particular game the same way. It's not as simple as tic-tac-toe. Some people go in with an RP focus. Some people go with lore or glamour focus. Some go with mechanics focus. Some like a little of everything. You're only going to be disappointed if you go into duty finder and expect everyone there to conform to what you're looking for, and if your reaction to disappointment is to lash out then not only are you going to have a bad time, so will the other people there. Why do that when you have a better chance of getting what you want and not making others miserable in party finder?

This isn't a matter of whether you're allowed to give critique or not give critique. But there's a difference between going "hey X, you should be using Grit here" and going "GDI X stop being such a shitty dark knight and put Grit on you're slowing the whole party down". Having someone react badly to the former? Yeah, that's obnoxious. But the latter even if the critique was valid is going to wreck things all around when it didn't have to.

Again, I mean this all sincerely. If there's a reason party finder wouldn't address the problem I'd like to know. If it might address the problem but hasn't been tried then that's less frustration for everyone.

Bluntly, people lie all the time on how experienced they are in this game to join content they have or haven't done. Sometimes you're forced to do that (hello everything in Heavensward), others they're just doing it and hoping they get carried. I have experience in that since I had to BS my way through almost everything in Heavensward to even get in a party, to the point of upgrading other classes since the ones I picked were thrown out immediately (monk). All people have to do is pretend they're trying to do current content and have relevant dps. If they're performing below that, or worse, get the party killed multiple times, they get thrown out. And unfortunately, there's a lot of people that can't even do dps equal to a level 65 player, despite having all of the current gear. If they couldn't learn how to do well now, they will never be able to in the future.

You will never get people to listen to 'rules' of your PF at even playing to current patch because there is no accountability inside the game without EX/Savage content or third party websites. In that content, that rule is enforced all the time, because you have to perform at least at an above average level or you don't clear.

As for me, a bad player is a player who cannot perform at a relevant pace and also refuses to try to improve past that. IE doing damage that is good in 4.0 during 4.5 content as a dps. I expect a player to want to learn to play to the best of their ability, and at least try to. Will it take a while? Perhaps, but if they are willing to try to do so, and improve along the way, then that is fine.

[Aeloria]

Just ran into what I'd call bad players:

Queued for Doma Castle as a Paladin and eats food buff. We get to the first boss. Takes 10 minutes to kill the first boss and I was legitimately TP starved.

[12:48 a.m.](Me) So.. you guys know how to play your classes? D: I've never had a dungeon boss take so long to kill.
[12:48 a.m.](Me) Genuinely asking.
[12:49 a.m.](Black Mage) yes i know how
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) reported
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) bullying
[12:49 a.m.](Me) I'm not bullying, but I am asking so I can help as another player.
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) im gonna kill myself

Samurai proceeds to pull the Vanguard and run back to me. I grab the add and just watch what they do. Black Mage proceeds to cast only Fire III and then Blizzard when they are at about 20% MP left. Samurai is not keeping Shifu and Jinpu buffs up; only skill I've seen them put up is Higanbana (no Tenka Goken for adds, no AoE in general for 4+ enemies, and no Midare Setsugekka).

[12:52 a.m.](Me) Okay, well, just watching this last fight, the two DPS could use work. I'm going to dip out under difference of playstyle. You guys enjoy your run. :3

I ate the leaving penalty. I have no problems with teaching players how to fight properly - I did this for a tank I wind up in an expert with years ago. However, even as a mentor, I did not sign up to encourage this kind of mentality the two above showed. I gave them both a chance to ask questions and let them know I knew something was wrong. From other mentor encounters, I've forcibly accepted that if players don't ask for or want help if you offer it, you're often wasting your time.

I had a black mage that wasn't doing any aoe in a SB leveling dungeon except that during bosses they used Thunder IV. I can only assume this is from a lack of reading tool tips. It was so frustrating, trash took so long to go down but there was only so much I could do on my rdm with scatter and enchanted moulinet(sp). They should have melted with that black mage.. I also blame SE for their naming convention on some abilities. People are in my opinion automatically assuming 4 is better than 3.. Seems logical right? Yet on the other hand players should read their tool tips. I guess i could have said something but then what last time I asked a dps to aoe they crapped all over me like i was being a jerk. So I just mostly keep silent and endure my torture. I was on an alt so was trying to clear the dungeon for aether current. yay fun. lol

I'm not the greatest player, god knows ive jacked up mechanics a few times mostly mechanics that the tell is so far on the outside of the arena that i can zoom my camera out enough to see, but holy moly i read my tool tips and try to the best of my ability to use things appropriately, pressing a GCD everytime i can and weaving in ogcd in between.

[Kaedan]

I had a black mage that wasn't doing any aoe in a SB leveling dungeon except that during bosses they used Thunder IV. I can only assume this is from a lack of reading tool tips. It was so frustrating, trash took so long to go down but there was only so much I could do on my rdm with scatter and enchanted moulinet(sp). They should have melted with that black mage.. I also blame SE for their naming convention on some abilities. People are in my opinion automatically assuming 4 is better than 3.. Seems logical right? Yet on the other hand players should read their tool tips. I guess i could have said something but then what last time I asked a dps to aoe they crapped all over me like i was being a jerk. So I just mostly keep silent and endure my torture. I was on an alt so was trying to clear the dungeon for aether current. yay fun. lol

I'm not the greatest player, god knows ive jacked up mechanics a few times mostly mechanics that the tell is so far on the outside of the arena that i can zoom my camera out enough to see, but holy moly i read my tool tips and try to the best of my ability to use things appropriately, pressing a GCD everytime i can and weaving in ogcd in between.

On that note, they should really go with the Japanese versions of spells. Fire, Fira, Firaga, etc. They've had them in English in previous FFs, no reason not to have them in FF14.

[LordMaitreya]

Someone who doesn’t use food and or has open materia slots in their gear.

[CarnivalNights]

No.

I meant the dungeon can take up to 90 min and still be cleared. I didn't imply that the healer contribution would make such an absurd difference. My point was that contribution matters, using your full toolkit is something that you should get used to, no matter what role you play. If you can shave 5 min off a run? Then why don't you do it? It adds up. Everyone pushing their DPS helps the party as a whole. You can skip phases that force a downtime, you can kill things faster before the tank runs out of CDs, you can help the melee DPS specifically to go ham on AoE damage and since everyone is helping, things would die faster before they run out of resources. You can even carry said DPS not contributing as much as they should.

See? This is my issue right here. Everyone is "memememe' and don't even think or they completely oversee the fact that their contribution is helping the group and, ultimately, yourself. Lack of teamwork was repeatedly mentioned here as a trait of a bad player.

Like I said, I'm not your enemy, I'm not disagreeing with you, but if a healer won't DPS, that's the least heinous thing I've ever seen in a dungeon, especially at max level. If a healer isn't healing, I'm not going to stop in the middle of the dungeon and lecture them on how to play.

It's a dungeon, I don't care. If this is end game content, then we have a different conversation. Your anger right now, is focused on the wrong person and direction.

[Kaedan]

Someone who doesn’t use food and or has open materia slots in their gear.

That would really depend on the content. Unless you're doing extremes or savage, no real statistical need for materia or food.

[Woffy]

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

In terms of the topic itself, first thing that comes to mind are people who refuse to use no-cost (as in an ogcD that doesn't reduce their output at all) aggro-reduction skills and strip aggro from the tank like you're proving a point that you're outdamaging their aggro generation.

Just wanted to answer your question: Everquest.

And concerning Vanguard, yes you could play Disciple or Bloodmage (both healed through dps). But if you played Shaman or Cleric in a raid you didnt do more than buff/debuff and heal/shield. And if a raid depended on the dps of a cleric? That raid was doomed from the beginning.
Archeage you chose 3 different skill sets so no pure healer. Guild wars 2 didn't even have a decent healer until ranger, and that is still not a pure healer.
Tera Ive played Mystic so offcourse I dps:ed.

Anyway I played most of those games and then some and this is the first game I've heard healers must dps. In most (at least in older games) healers usually have dps for soloing xp, the healer is usually expected to heal/shield, buff/debuff, summon, rezz, aka your basic healer duties.

That said, I do dps as a healer in this game since there is to much dead time otherwise. But that is me, I wouldn't complain about a healer just healing.

As far as topic is concerned I'd say a bad player is someone who doesn't want to improve or doesn't care (no I don't place non-dps healers in this category).

[Kalise]

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

World of Warcraft.

In bleeding edge raiding, your healers will help with DPS'ing. But for a lot of people, healing has been very much a focus of healers. Either where they had to spam heals constantly to keep up with incoming damage, or they had to not cast anything to conserve mana (During expansions when mana was a thing to care about and people didn't just have mana regen out the wazoo and free damage spells)

In any case, it's usually a matter of Healers in many games being "Healing comes first, if you can squeeze it in, maybe push out some damage where you can". With varying degrees of DPS availability (For example, in Anarchy Online, a majority of healing comes from HoTs, some lasting 30+ minutes giving ample time to just DPS/CC things)

In FFXIV it's "DPS comes first. Sometimes healing gets in the way of this..."

Made even worse by how LB generation works (So healing someone from critical life gives a ton of LB. As does keeping someone alive through shields preventing overkill damage) so healers are even more incentivized to leave healing until absolutely necessary.

It's the same thing for Tanking too. Most games it's "Tanking comes first. Once you can survive, start pushing DPS as best you can"

FFXIV it's "DPS comes first. Let other people Circle-Shirk and detaunt to facilitate you going SMOrc and just pop CD's to mitigate TB's"

[JunseiKei]

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

If you really played a healer on Ragnarok Online, then you'd know you have only ONE attack spell and that was unlocked via a quest. Otherwise, you spammed Lex Aeterna, which was a debuff that made the next attack do double damage; that's hardly the same as attacking and doing damage. You only got that if you went down a certain path in your skill tree, too. If you were a solo player leveling up a priest, you basically had to heal-bomb undead to level up. Otherwise, you'd have to build a healer that used physical attacks, which cut into your use as a healer (because a priest in WoE was most effective healing teammates and using one of the two things that'd heal a castle's crystal).

Since you mentioned Neverwinter, which is on Perfect World's arc launcher...

Forsaken World's blood tree Vampire has a buff that literally turns off the ability to attack and adds some nice buffs to your heals (like activating instantly, adding attack buffs to your heals, increased potencies, reducing heal cooldowns, etc.). A divine priest in the same game was most valuable healing and sometimes MP draining with a skill that could be used only so often.

Perfect World International, before 5APS broke the game, high-end bosses simply hit too hard to do any kind of attacking or used a ton of AoEs, or both.

From what I recall in TERA, there were tons of times a healer was kept busy, wasn't safe to attack, kiting mobs, etc to afford very little chances to attack. Maybe that changed after I stopped playing (which was when FFXIV had their third closed beta). Not to mention the damage from a healer was laughable compared to DPS classes (Berserker hitting 1m+ in damage). I know mystic had a really strong summon that lasted for a stupidly short amount of time, but otherwise, you dropped motes and had a much weaker burst heal compared to a priest.

Basically, some of the older games rewarded healing and tanking more than healing sparingly and aggro-generation sparingly. FFXIV is really the only game I've come across that has such a high impact of tanks and healers doing damage.

[TalithaSolarien]

On that note, they should really go with the Japanese versions of spells. Fire, Fira, Firaga, etc. They've had them in English in previous FFs, no reason not to have them in FF14.

Please do so. They actually are called that way in the German client (as they were in the old FF titles). I really don't like this Fire 1,2,3,4 nonsense.