What is a "bad player" to you?

[Gaiinahat]

One time I accidentally joined a DF as a Marauder instead of a Warrior. I felt really bad that I messed that up, but the other players were really nice about it. We managed to get through it though. I love it when other people offer advice on how to play my classes. It makes the game more lively!

[Vahlnir]

I've had it happen maybe 1% of the time. Most healers in the game have been pretty good. I've honestly done well over 1k dungeons as a tank and it's not been an issue. Also, why would it be happening a lot more than people think it's happening? We're all playing the game, aren't we? Our collective perception IS what happens in the game.

I just got out of an Orbonne run where this happened to a healer during the trash before Cid. Wasn't really a big deal tbh because, as you said, it honestly just doesn't happen very often. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen it. I teased them about it momentarily and moved on. It's funny when it does happen, at least imo.

[CarnivalNights]

I disagree.

It's not about clearing the content or not, because yeah, you can spend 90 minutes in that dungeon and clear it, but I can assure you the majority of the players don't want that. It's about using all your tools. I beg of you, don't use extremes as an example. A healer that DPS isn't aspiring to become the #1 of the bunch, an elitist top tier raider that got lost in a dungeon with a bunch of casual. It's a player that realizes they have more buttons than Cure II and Medica and they want to support the party with these skills. It's the same thing than a DPS using their utility. Why should they do that? Their job is to DPS, not to regenerate your MP, not to mitigate the mob's damage, not to benefit the party with increased healing. It's the same: You have tools, use them. Healers have a huge arsenal of DPS skills and a lot of downtime when healing. So they can definitely pull this off. A tank doesn't have to remain at 100% of their HP ALL the time.

It is a bad player. I won't sugar coat this. FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT, they are not using their class at with all their available tools.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

[Zukissa]

If I see the attitude of the group slowly turn for the worse due to repeated wipes I just leave the instance as there is nothing beneficial that can be said at that stage.

[Lilseph]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

No.

I meant the dungeon can take up to 90 min and still be cleared. I didn't imply that the healer contribution would make such an absurd difference. My point was that contribution matters, using your full toolkit is something that you should get used to, no matter what role you play. If you can shave 5 min off a run? Then why don't you do it? It adds up. Everyone pushing their DPS helps the party as a whole. You can skip phases that force a downtime, you can kill things faster before the tank runs out of CDs, you can help the melee DPS specifically to go ham on AoE damage and since everyone is helping, things would die faster before they run out of resources. You can even carry said DPS not contributing as much as they should.

See? This is my issue right here. Everyone is "memememe' and don't even think or they completely oversee the fact that their contribution is helping the group and, ultimately, yourself. Lack of teamwork was repeatedly mentioned here as a trait of a bad player.

[hydralus]

I'll also add that I'm perfectly happy even if it's a LITTLE bit of extra damage. Even tossing an aero or the SCH DoTs is fine and dandy. Hell both WHM and SCH (and I assume AST too) have literal free OGCD damage skills in Assize and shadow flare so it would be pretty difficult to not do at least some damage.

[Jaywalker]

Honest question. Players who only want to share parties with people who are experienced and know their class cold, who follow their rotation by the book... why not just use party finder and include a small note that says you prefer to play with very experienced players who are confident in their rotation?

It's not reasonable to expect everyone to play this particular game the same way. It's not as simple as tic-tac-toe. Some people go in with an RP focus. Some people go with lore or glamour focus. Some go with mechanics focus. Some like a little of everything. You're only going to be disappointed if you go into duty finder and expect everyone there to conform to what you're looking for, and if your reaction to disappointment is to lash out then not only are you going to have a bad time, so will the other people there. Why do that when you have a better chance of getting what you want and not making others miserable in party finder?

This isn't a matter of whether you're allowed to give critique or not give critique. But there's a difference between going "hey X, you should be using Grit here" and going "GDI X stop being such a shitty dark knight and put Grit on you're slowing the whole party down". Having someone react badly to the former? Yeah, that's obnoxious. But the latter even if the critique was valid is going to wreck things all around when it didn't have to.

Again, I mean this all sincerely. If there's a reason party finder wouldn't address the problem I'd like to know. If it might address the problem but hasn't been tried then that's less frustration for everyone.

[Shougun]

Any player who purposely leeches (your cat is destroying your room in the background is fair enough reason to have to step away for a second lol, I mean people who enter with that purpose), and anyone who demands and requires others to carry their weight. Those two overlap a bit but sometimes you have someone who's like "yeah I don't use tank stance" and they have awful gear and cannot hold aggro against a single spell and you ask for tank stance and they're like "nah just do less damage" (or insert whatever problem here, I'm not picking on tanks). Bad gear happens sometimes on accident and people can adjust a bit usually to compensate- I'm talking about something like a healer refusing to leave cleric stance back when it nerfed healing and had bad heals due to bad gear in the first place.. . . . . . Ima cry.

If someone doesn't play very well but doesn't expect others to carry them (trying to play, even if it's not great) then we're going to have a fun time struggling together, but if you're like "I died because the healer didn't heal me enough, they sux vote kick them" meanwhile they refused to dodge any aoes or didn't use any abilities beyond "1". . . yeeeh..... lol.

Now the standards go up a bit for savage/ex content but imo that's different. Bad to me is just someone who doesn't care about playing in any sense and expects others to play for them, often with a bad attitude.

Don't need to be a skilled player to be a "good" player in my mind. Nice + trying to play = I'm happy, let's play together!

[Gemina]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

It's not really about that though. It's about being courteous to the other players in your group. When you do not have to perform the primary function of your role, this is considered 'downtime', and all roles are not created equally. What this means is that due to the nature of their role, DPS have zero downtime. They have some non-damage/supportive skills but these are typically ogcds that are weaved between their gcds. Tank downtime is when they no longer need to generate aggro. They acquire it quickly, and adding more enmity when it is not needed is a waste of their DPS potential, which is quite respectable in DPS stance. Healer downtime on the other hand, is when no healing/cleanses/raises are required. Without question they have the highest amount of downtime out of the three roles. What this all translates to is that a healer who stands around waiting to heal up damage is quite literally doing far less than everyone else. It just isn't cool.

Believe me, I totally understand wanting to heal and it being what you signed up for when choosing this role. But let me also so say this, content that requires a ton of healing is very stressful. Not only do you have to worry about the unavoidable stuff, you also have to take care of yourself and anyone else who takes unnecessary damage. When players are learning and having trouble with certain mechanics, this is the type of stuff that drives people to Homer Simpson levels of baldness. I love me a good schitefest, but there are limits to it. It is true that healer DPS is not factored into even the toughest of clears, but what this does is allows healers to help push very valuable and helpful DPS. It is greatly appreciated from all members of the group and will lead to the healer getting tons of comms.

My advice is to at least try. No one is expecting savage raid levels of optimization of your DPS kits with the exception of a few random doucherockets, but ignore them. Toss out some DoTs, stones, malefics, and broils here and there. It makes more of a difference than you think.

[JunseiKei]

Just ran into what I'd call bad players:

Queued for Doma Castle as a Paladin and eats food buff. We get to the first boss. Takes 10 minutes to kill the first boss and I was legitimately TP starved.

[12:48 a.m.](Me) So.. you guys know how to play your classes? D: I've never had a dungeon boss take so long to kill.
[12:48 a.m.](Me) Genuinely asking.
[12:49 a.m.](Black Mage) yes i know how
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) reported
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) bullying
[12:49 a.m.](Me) I'm not bullying, but I am asking so I can help as another player.
[12:49 a.m.](Samurai) im gonna kill myself

Samurai proceeds to pull the Vanguard and run back to me. I grab the add and just watch what they do. Black Mage proceeds to cast only Fire III and then Blizzard when they are at about 20% MP left. Samurai is not keeping Shifu and Jinpu buffs up; only skill I've seen them put up is Higanbana (no Tenka Goken for adds, no AoE in general for 4+ enemies, and no Midare Setsugekka).

[12:52 a.m.](Me) Okay, well, just watching this last fight, the two DPS could use work. I'm going to dip out under difference of playstyle. You guys enjoy your run. :3

I ate the leaving penalty. I have no problems with teaching players how to fight properly - I did this for a tank I wind up in an expert with years ago. However, even as a mentor, I did not sign up to encourage this kind of mentality the two above showed. I gave them both a chance to ask questions and let them know I knew something was wrong. From other mentor encounters, I've forcibly accepted that if players don't ask for or want help if you offer it, you're often wasting your time.