What is a "bad player" to you?

[Gemina]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

From my experience, most DF tanks don't care about the capabilities of their healers and mass pull anyway. Many of them do it without checking the gear of their mates, don't ask the healer if he/she is ok with it, and don't use any mitigation CDs. IOW, their own safety and the safety of the group is a non-determining factor. If the healer can't hang and they wipe, then they ease up. It is not difficult for a healer to add offensive skills while also keeping you alive. I would know. I've been doing it for three years, and many other healers even longer than that.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Vote to have this healer kicked. You can even report them because everyone is obligated to perform their role in duties, and if they aren't healing you then this is totally a reportable offense.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

Pathetic? Really? Ever hear of Assize, Holy, Earthly Star, Gravity, Miasma II and Bane? These AoE healer abilities MELT mob packs, and Assize, ES, and Miasma II have no %reduction based on number of mobs. And the more mobs there are, the more damage they do. These abilities are what ramp up healer DPS because their single target sucks for days and serve as filler for when they have nothing else to do. Rest assured, mob packs are going to die MUCH faster when healers use their AoE offensive skills. This is an undisputable fact.

[Kalise]

Um, no. I outdps as whm or scholar most of the generic dutyfinder players on big pulls and heal the tank (even the dps if they take damage) on the fly.

Also just do the math: for example

Tank: ~4k
Healer: ~3k
DPS: ~6k
DPS~6k

19k group dps is more than 16k

What is better, doing 19k DPS to 1 trash pack at a time, or doing 16k to 5 trash packs at a time?

80k group DPS is more than 19k.

I'm not saying that there isn't content where level scaling means that you can keep the tank alive with just a regen/adlo/aspected benefic every 10 seconds even against mass pulls, but there's far more content where tanks will need considerable healing even if level sync'd and popping CD's when mass pulling.

To which actually healing so the party doesn't wipe and so the tank can mass pull for the actual DPS to actually DPS many things is often far more efficient than spamming your ST nukes and healing "On the fly"

By all means, spam DPS against the bosses. They generally don't really do much threatening damage nor can they be exploited such as mass pulling.

But all of my fast runs have been from competent healers that know when to stop attempting to push out their mediocre DPS and focus on allowing the Tank to go ham on the big pulls.

[Keizerwilson]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

A good healer can heal thru mass pulls, and DPS at the same time. It's not a one or another thing.

[Sieben79]

What is better, doing 19k DPS to 1 trash pack at a time, or doing 16k to 5 trash packs at a time?

80k group DPS is more than 19k.

Then please add 16k damage fromhealers on top of your 80k.

96k > 80k, or I'm wrong?

Your fault here is: If you leave one source of damage out of your calculation, it will be always less than if you combine all. It doesn't matter what numbers you put in. That's why I was just putting numbers for a single mob in my first post. It doesn't matter if it's 1 or 10 enemies.

[Kalise]

A good healer can heal thru mass pulls, and DPS at the same time. It's not a one or another thing.

Well I guess I've never grouped with a good healer then. (Including my time playing as a DPS)

Since, a lot of content, especially level 50+ I see healers having to 100% spam every GCD on heals for mass pulls.

Guess everyone in the game just sucks.

Would love to play with one of the apparently "Good" healers in this thread that can somehow heal through tanks being brought to 40% health in the time it takes to cast a heal GCD after just healing to full with a heal GCD as well as have time to spam out Holy/Gravity (Which I know are long cast times because I also have all healers at max level). Would make roulettes so much easier to know that people would let tanks easily just mass pull while they spam DPS. Rather than you know, having tanks always dying whenever they try and attempt this

[NocturniaUzuki]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

I should point out here that I will not bother putting a Regen on the tank for a single pull if, based on projected DPS output versus damage taken, the tank will not die if completely neglected. That Regen cast is a waste of a GCD that I could use for DPS. Instead, I'll just wait until after the pull and heal the tank on the way to the next group.

However, I would much rather the tank pull everything in the entire room and actually make me have to heal. It's more fun than mindlessly spamming Holy without even having to pay attention to the tank.

Come to think of it, maybe what you feel is part of the reason why the JP tanks aren't doing big pulls in super easy dungeons. They get all jittery when they're low on HP, and I don't even bother healing them when they're doing single pulls. Not like the mobs would ever kill them.

[NocturniaUzuki]

Well I guess I've never grouped with a good healer then. (Including my time playing as a DPS)

Since, a lot of content, especially level 50+ I see healers having to 100% spam every GCD on heals for mass pulls.

Guess everyone in the game just sucks.

Would love to play with one of the apparently "Good" healers in this thread that can somehow heal through tanks being brought to 40% health in the time it takes to cast a heal GCD after just healing to full with a heal GCD as well as have time to spam out Holy/Gravity (Which I know are long cast times because I also have all healers at max level). Would make roulettes so much easier to know that people would let tanks easily just mass pull while they spam DPS. Rather than you know, having tanks always dying whenever they try and attempt this

It depends on a lot of things.

Some dungeon mobs hit harder than others. The more recent dungeons are a joke where you can do the entire dungeon without casting Cure, while doing mass pulls (like in Swallow's Compass), and even on the bosses, although the last one requires some teamwork to do without any GCD heals.

But others are obviously more intensive. Usually, earlier dungeons are more painful, particularly earlier in an expansion. Ala Mhigo and Temple of the Fist, etc. They can be mass pulled, but will often require some GCD Cures.

It also depends on the tank using appropriate cooldowns, and everyone DPSing hard enough to destroy the monster before the healer runs out of oGCD tools. On WHM for Mass pulls, I'll put Regen on the tank, followed by Asylum, and DB on cooldown. The initial DB nets me the time needed to finish Holy without having to heal. That's a 5s stun. That frees me and everyone else up to go ham on the mobs. Stun reapplies again for 2.5s after the first one falls off. That's a total of 7.5s of everyone going ham on the boss. After that, if it's a big enough pull or the DPS is low, I'll have to juggle Cures between Holy when able. I'll usually Largesse at this point to compensate for the extra healing time required. Alternate Cure II and Holy while recasting Benison when it comes up, reapplying Regen, and using oGCDs when necessary (particularly when I reapply the Regen to weave it).

There are definitely some pulls where short of the 7.5s Holy stun time, I have to basically heal 24/7. Like on the courtyard of Ala Mhigo with the gorilla bots. I can DPS if it's only those two groups, but if the whole room is pulled, that's a situation where I heal spam. The second last pull in Hell's Lid is another example, with the two cleaving water snakes that hit like a truck. Even then though, if the tank and I have a groove going, and I trust him to HG or LD when necessary, I can net 6-10s of free Holy time then just Benediction.

[Kayyay]

If a tank dies to 1 group of mobs and feels that they need a single regen to live, they aren't popping any cool downs. I've been spamming the current highest dungeon with the tank pulling wall to wall and I'm barely even using regen. Just benison, asylum and assize are more than enough. Especially with the stun from holy. The mobs are dying faster than any of them can do 3 autos. Helps having dps that know how to aoe. It really isn't hard to do mass pulls and have everyone do dps if everyone just does their job even half competently. Out of 3 runs, I did 1 gcd cure and that's only because I was messing around with my friend and rescued them into an aoe.

[Enla]

A good healer can heal thru mass pulls, and DPS at the same time. It's not a one or another thing.

Hell at least with WHM, Holy is a part of my mass pull kit because that precious stun usually allows me set the tank up to be in a better spot if things start going south.

Then there's SCH where if I have to actually spend the majority of my time healing people during a mass pull with Eos and Excog in action, something is wrong. Our entire kit is so focused on preventing damage in the first place that if played right we have ridiculously high downtimes between heals.

I only just got AST to cap recently and haven't touched it since, so I'm less gung-ho playing it compared to the other two classes, but even there I can't think of a single instance where I shouldn't be able to DPS and mass heal with ease.

[Gemina]

I should point out here that I will not bother putting a Regen on the tank for a single pull if, based on projected DPS output versus damage taken, the tank will not die if completely neglected. That Regen cast is a waste of a GCD that I could use for DPS. Instead, I'll just wait until after the pull and heal the tank on the way to the next group.

Yup, regen isn't even necessary if the tank only pulls one pack. Probably don't even need to cure the tank before the next pull as outside combat natural HP regen will restore plenty for the next pull. One ogcd will very likely take care of all the healing needed in this scenario unless the tank is so undergeared that he melts like butter. Lol, I actually pointed out to a tank recently that did a massive pull that I hadn't had to use cure 2 in a dungeon for the longest time. He apologized, and I had to correct him saying that this was a good thing. I commended him for being able to properly gauge the strength of the group and knew that it was perfectly safe to do a massive pull.