What is a "bad player" to you?

[Zer0]

I think the community as a whole often times labels casuals instantly as bad players.

They claim "Doesn't improve or won't" as a reason. Like half the posts here, but their definition of improving differs from the other players definition.

I've been yelled at and harassed as a healer for not doing enough damage. I was yelled at by tanks for keeping them at full health. That's not improving myself. It's not making be better as I want to be better. When I play a healer, I do just that, play a healer. I loathe magic damage with a very firm passion. My overall least favorite anything in the game.

As a tank, which I've stopped doing, I don't know most dungeons. I don't tell people either. Why? Because going into a dungeon you're forced to do at 58 and saying you've never been here and don't know anything about it just means half the group will leave instantly.


This community thinks that they're the greatest in MMO gaming, but they're not. They're in fact, worse than other mmo's. Because only in this game do tanks and healers get harassed for lack of damage in addition to their core role.

[ReiMakoto]

1. I've been yelled at and harassed as a healer for not doing enough damage. I was yelled at by tanks for keeping them at full health. That's not improving myself. It's not making be better as I want to be better. When I play a healer, I do just that, play a healer. I loathe magic damage with a very firm passion. My overall least favorite anything in the game.

2. As a tank, which I've stopped doing, I don't know most dungeons. I don't tell people either. Why? Because going into a dungeon you're forced to do at 58 and saying you've never been here and don't know anything about it just means half the group will leave instantly.

Just Focusing on these two things here.

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.
2. Ive seen this happen a handful of times in my many years with this game. The only time I see people leave at the start is some tanks auto leaven aurum vale, or people leaving when they inspect a tanks gear and see its an expansion out of date in the vault.

[Zer0]

Just Focusing on these two things here.

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.
2. Ive seen this happen a handful of times in my many years with this game. The only time I see people leave at the start is some tanks auto leaven aurum vale, or people leaving when they inspect a tanks gear and see its an expansion out of date in the vault.

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

[AxlStream]

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

Erm...If your only metric to being a good healer is "did people die?", chances are you are a bad player to many players. Tanks only need as much HP to survive the next hit, anything that pushes them over after the fact is meaningless except if it's to prep for a mechanic or such. I often go into fights without healing for 20-30 seconds at a time, relying only on my sustain from Storm's Path combo and mitigation rotated properly. I will concede that healers are usually reliant on how their party play to be seen as good but just going "nobody died so I'm doing great" is just doing a disservice to yourself and all your future parties and partners.

[Lilseph]

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

This attitude right here it's why you don't improve. And that's why people will keep "harassing" you in DF. Keeping people alive is the bare minimum for a healer.

[ltsquigs]

This attitude right here it's why you don't improve.

If they're clearing the content they are queueing for, why is it bad if they don't want to "improve" (which really means be optimal). Lots of people play this game entirely as a casual leisure activity, they aren't looking to be the number 1 players in their area, they're just looking to do the content for fun, and as long as they aren't actively hindering people from doing content I don't see why that makes them a "bad player" it just doesn't make them a raider.

On the flip side I have 100% had content fail because people got toxic over other people not doing their job "properly" and quitting dungeons mid dungeon, yelling at people getting them to quit, etc. That actively does cause people to fail content that should honestly never be failable and wastes everyones time. If people can't deal with the fact that not everyone has the same mind set as them in a game like this, they should go play single player games instead.

[hydralus]

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

In terms of the topic itself, first thing that comes to mind are people who refuse to use no-cost (as in an ogcD that doesn't reduce their output at all) aggro-reduction skills and strip aggro from the tank like you're proving a point that you're outdamaging their aggro generation.

[Woffy]

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

In terms of the topic itself, first thing that comes to mind are people who refuse to use no-cost (as in an ogcD that doesn't reduce their output at all) aggro-reduction skills and strip aggro from the tank like you're proving a point that you're outdamaging their aggro generation.

Just wanted to answer your question: Everquest.

And concerning Vanguard, yes you could play Disciple or Bloodmage (both healed through dps). But if you played Shaman or Cleric in a raid you didnt do more than buff/debuff and heal/shield. And if a raid depended on the dps of a cleric? That raid was doomed from the beginning.
Archeage you chose 3 different skill sets so no pure healer. Guild wars 2 didn't even have a decent healer until ranger, and that is still not a pure healer.
Tera Ive played Mystic so offcourse I dps:ed.

Anyway I played most of those games and then some and this is the first game I've heard healers must dps. In most (at least in older games) healers usually have dps for soloing xp, the healer is usually expected to heal/shield, buff/debuff, summon, rezz, aka your basic healer duties.

That said, I do dps as a healer in this game since there is to much dead time otherwise. But that is me, I wouldn't complain about a healer just healing.

As far as topic is concerned I'd say a bad player is someone who doesn't want to improve or doesn't care (no I don't place non-dps healers in this category).

[hydralus]

Anyway I played most of those games and then some and this is the first game I've heard healers must dps. In most (at least in older games) healers usually have dps for soloing xp, the healer is usually expected to heal/shield, buff/debuff, summon, rezz, aka your basic healer duties.

I want to start off with saying that I don't bother healers or tell them what to do in the game (unless they are missing a mechanic). When I see a healer who's just standing around I'll either drop or just keep going because I imagine if they're standing around at 70 they simply don't care to utilize half of their skill kit. That's their choice, I accept it. (Heck, it's half the reason I play a healer so often is because then I know the healer will be as active as possible. The other half is because I enjoy it so much) That said it's clearly a better option to use the spare time to increase outgoing damage than to do literally nothing but wait. Unless you're fearing that there's going to be the tankbuster of all tankbusters approaching then you're just slacking it. (Also I'd like to add that I'm talking specifically about standing around and doing nothing waiting for a heal to matter)

I don't think we should be basing things off what you 'must' do but what you 'can' do. I try to improve my damage as a DPS and using the right mitigation skills at the right time for a tank as well, but there are plenty of people who won't and things will still work out just fine.

As for the games brought up, I understand there's no pure healers in a lot of them. A lot even have builds (In RO I played a semi battle cleric/support so I recall doing damage plenty). There's also MP limitations or simply not having the ability to damage certain creatures. But if you DO have the methods and ample opportunity, why wouldn't you take it? I imagine the answer is 'because I don't want to', which is definitely an answer although a pretty selfish one.

Hell I play a PLD. They're a tank. Do you know how many times I've healed someone else because both healers were dead or simply not paying attention? If I had the mindset that I should be doing my primary role then I should be using that MP to spam flash s'more. Then that person would be dead because while I had the means and the opportunity to assist and greatly help with the completion of the duty, I decided 'nah'.

[Kalise]

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

World of Warcraft.

In bleeding edge raiding, your healers will help with DPS'ing. But for a lot of people, healing has been very much a focus of healers. Either where they had to spam heals constantly to keep up with incoming damage, or they had to not cast anything to conserve mana (During expansions when mana was a thing to care about and people didn't just have mana regen out the wazoo and free damage spells)

In any case, it's usually a matter of Healers in many games being "Healing comes first, if you can squeeze it in, maybe push out some damage where you can". With varying degrees of DPS availability (For example, in Anarchy Online, a majority of healing comes from HoTs, some lasting 30+ minutes giving ample time to just DPS/CC things)

In FFXIV it's "DPS comes first. Sometimes healing gets in the way of this..."

Made even worse by how LB generation works (So healing someone from critical life gives a ton of LB. As does keeping someone alive through shields preventing overkill damage) so healers are even more incentivized to leave healing until absolutely necessary.

It's the same thing for Tanking too. Most games it's "Tanking comes first. Once you can survive, start pushing DPS as best you can"

FFXIV it's "DPS comes first. Let other people Circle-Shirk and detaunt to facilitate you going SMOrc and just pop CD's to mitigate TB's"