What is a "bad player" to you?

[CarnivalNights]

I just got tired of arguing with someone in circles. Now you're just getting defensive telling me about your work experience. The conversation's taken a different direction. No for me, thank you though.

[NocturniaUzuki]

A bad player its a tank who dont undestand thats impossible heal and run at same time, agroo all mobs and espect healer cast time's intant. epic fail.

That's why you Sprint during pulls, and the healer's position is not at the back of the party. It's with the tank. Literally on the tank's butt of you can manage it. Using this method, you can land 1-2 GCD heals during the pull without going out of range, plus you have Swiftcast and oGCDs if you need to but ideally you want to save those for DPSing at the end of the pull.

[SturmChurro]

You can safely say, I am a bad player.

[NocturniaUzuki]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

I should point out here that I will not bother putting a Regen on the tank for a single pull if, based on projected DPS output versus damage taken, the tank will not die if completely neglected. That Regen cast is a waste of a GCD that I could use for DPS. Instead, I'll just wait until after the pull and heal the tank on the way to the next group.

However, I would much rather the tank pull everything in the entire room and actually make me have to heal. It's more fun than mindlessly spamming Holy without even having to pay attention to the tank.

Come to think of it, maybe what you feel is part of the reason why the JP tanks aren't doing big pulls in super easy dungeons. They get all jittery when they're low on HP, and I don't even bother healing them when they're doing single pulls. Not like the mobs would ever kill them.

[Gemina]

I should point out here that I will not bother putting a Regen on the tank for a single pull if, based on projected DPS output versus damage taken, the tank will not die if completely neglected. That Regen cast is a waste of a GCD that I could use for DPS. Instead, I'll just wait until after the pull and heal the tank on the way to the next group.

Yup, regen isn't even necessary if the tank only pulls one pack. Probably don't even need to cure the tank before the next pull as outside combat natural HP regen will restore plenty for the next pull. One ogcd will very likely take care of all the healing needed in this scenario unless the tank is so undergeared that he melts like butter. Lol, I actually pointed out to a tank recently that did a massive pull that I hadn't had to use cure 2 in a dungeon for the longest time. He apologized, and I had to correct him saying that this was a good thing. I commended him for being able to properly gauge the strength of the group and knew that it was perfectly safe to do a massive pull.

[NocturniaUzuki]

Well I guess I've never grouped with a good healer then. (Including my time playing as a DPS)

Since, a lot of content, especially level 50+ I see healers having to 100% spam every GCD on heals for mass pulls.

Guess everyone in the game just sucks.

Would love to play with one of the apparently "Good" healers in this thread that can somehow heal through tanks being brought to 40% health in the time it takes to cast a heal GCD after just healing to full with a heal GCD as well as have time to spam out Holy/Gravity (Which I know are long cast times because I also have all healers at max level). Would make roulettes so much easier to know that people would let tanks easily just mass pull while they spam DPS. Rather than you know, having tanks always dying whenever they try and attempt this

It depends on a lot of things.

Some dungeon mobs hit harder than others. The more recent dungeons are a joke where you can do the entire dungeon without casting Cure, while doing mass pulls (like in Swallow's Compass), and even on the bosses, although the last one requires some teamwork to do without any GCD heals.

But others are obviously more intensive. Usually, earlier dungeons are more painful, particularly earlier in an expansion. Ala Mhigo and Temple of the Fist, etc. They can be mass pulled, but will often require some GCD Cures.

It also depends on the tank using appropriate cooldowns, and everyone DPSing hard enough to destroy the monster before the healer runs out of oGCD tools. On WHM for Mass pulls, I'll put Regen on the tank, followed by Asylum, and DB on cooldown. The initial DB nets me the time needed to finish Holy without having to heal. That's a 5s stun. That frees me and everyone else up to go ham on the mobs. Stun reapplies again for 2.5s after the first one falls off. That's a total of 7.5s of everyone going ham on the boss. After that, if it's a big enough pull or the DPS is low, I'll have to juggle Cures between Holy when able. I'll usually Largesse at this point to compensate for the extra healing time required. Alternate Cure II and Holy while recasting Benison when it comes up, reapplying Regen, and using oGCDs when necessary (particularly when I reapply the Regen to weave it).

There are definitely some pulls where short of the 7.5s Holy stun time, I have to basically heal 24/7. Like on the courtyard of Ala Mhigo with the gorilla bots. I can DPS if it's only those two groups, but if the whole room is pulled, that's a situation where I heal spam. The second last pull in Hell's Lid is another example, with the two cleaving water snakes that hit like a truck. Even then though, if the tank and I have a groove going, and I trust him to HG or LD when necessary, I can net 6-10s of free Holy time then just Benediction.

[Kayyay]

If a tank dies to 1 group of mobs and feels that they need a single regen to live, they aren't popping any cool downs. I've been spamming the current highest dungeon with the tank pulling wall to wall and I'm barely even using regen. Just benison, asylum and assize are more than enough. Especially with the stun from holy. The mobs are dying faster than any of them can do 3 autos. Helps having dps that know how to aoe. It really isn't hard to do mass pulls and have everyone do dps if everyone just does their job even half competently. Out of 3 runs, I did 1 gcd cure and that's only because I was messing around with my friend and rescued them into an aoe.

[Ceridwenae]

What is a bad player to me? Oof, I don't like this kind of definitive sort of question. I don't want to call someone bad for one or two things they've done, and most of the time, it's not like I can comment on how they do after I encounter them, or even before that. Yes, something they do may be less than brilliant, but it doesn't mean they are, in themselves, a "bad player".

I could group people up and put them in boxes, but I don't feel it's right for me to do so. I just can't damn whole sways of people I don't know. What I can do is gauge my own personal experiences, and although it's just anecdotal, that's what Tales from the Duty Finder is for. The best self-help thread I've seen on a game forum anywhere.

So, if in one particular instance there's someone who seems to not be pulling their weight, and even after kind words nothing seems to occur, then I might vent in that thread, or to Hubby. That doesn't mean the person pulling their weight won't then go and have an epiphany at some point afterwards and suddenly become the most attentive player ever. I'm likely never to know if that happens or not. But it could. I only know that if I didn't try to help them help themselves if or when I can, then I'd consider myself and only myself bad and know I have more work to do. If I've tried my best to help and it doesn't work, then at least I tried. Hopefully it sticks somewhere and whoever it is doesn't run into major issues down the line.

I have to be careful, to an extent, at how I approach this sort of question. I see many sides of an argument. I am a slow learner (my brain is borked!), and have anxiety to boot, so I'm very conscious of the fact I really have to double down on my efforts everywhere to have success. It can be very tiring, which is why you're unlikely to see me doing some of that more difficult content (savage stuff. That kind of thing). I can't deal with many rinse repeats in one hour for example, it's too overwhelming and draining physically and emotionally (I will try another time if it's really important to me, however).

Still, we lead by example. If we don't do the best we can do, be that using all our toolkit at the appropriate moments or simply just making sure the party sticks together and looks after itself, adjusting expectations based on who is in the party, all whilst keeping a healthy line of communication open, then we're probably all bad players. I'll also say I personally like to swot up as best I can ahead of going into something, particularly if I've not done it before, or have only done it once or twice, but I do that to compensate for the fact I don't always pick visual cues up so easily, and if there are patterns and/or lights, I can't guarantee I won't get caught short. Forewarned is forearmed for me in this case.

We can have ranting, venting threads because mostly it's good for the soul so things don't fester and build up into resentment (frankly, I see Tales from the DF as a confessional of sorts). We want others to give us a little support, even validation for our decisions, instruction on what to do if it happens again, and forgiveness if we did eff up (own your mistakes, everyone, and enrich your lives).

We've got people from round the globe, all walks of life, ages, etc., playing this game. We've got people with still developing reasoning skills, people who don't fully understand themselves let alone anyone else, people with different physical capabilities, mental capabilities, different belief systems, customs, cultures. We're going to run into differences of opinion on anything you can think of. Any thread on the forum, this one included, demonstrates this. But here's where I hope we can at least try to agree: being courteous and understanding with each other is a great start ahead of improving anyone's respective gaming skills. I can't help but think it starts by not calling people "bad" for missing that, and having forgiveness for ourselves and others when mistakes happen.

[Ilan]

What is a bad player? Someone who clearly struggles with playing any class and any mechanic, refuses to read the tooltips of their skills, refuse to use certain skills and reacts to any kind of help with something like: "This is a game you toxic elitist, i can play how i want because you don't pay my sub."

[Gariored]

What is a bad player? Someone who clearly struggles with playing any class and any mechanic, refuses to read the tooltips of their skills, refuse to use certain skills and reacts to any kind of help with something like: "This is a game you toxic elitist, i can play how i want because you don't pay my sub."

THIS, just... all of this


also I believe bad players are ones who "don't put the party first"