What is a "bad player" to you?

[Keizerwilson]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

A good healer can heal thru mass pulls, and DPS at the same time. It's not a one or another thing.

[Misutoraru]

I think that the mentality come in
I don't do big pull till I am sure my heal and DPS can handle it, I dont so stance dance until I know my tank isn't squishy and my DPS know to dodge AOE
However, it take time to observe the party ability.
I would rather my party play safe than risking of getting wipe because it will get longer
That's the issue of DF, unless you queue with a friend, you never know the players you get in queue and it would take time to observe
I would told the tank I can handle the dmg and do bigger pull if I know I am comfortable or I would ask the heal if he/she feel comfortable for me doing bigger pull.
At the end it is the communication that make the different. Shouting or insulting won't help, but there are just always someone incapable of normal communication and start with a insult or shouting at other

[HyoMinPark]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

You realize if the healer was also DPSing those trash packs, they will net anywhere between 5,000 to 8,000 DPS on average, right? I've even broken 10,000 on a large trash pack before with Holy/Gravity spam. You call healer DPS pathetic, but Holy/Gravity can do more than a DPS' AOE.

[Deceptus]

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

When I heal, I primarily play SCH and WHH and on trash packs, if I'm not top DPS, it's surprising (unless there is a good summoner in the party).

Healers can put out GREAT AoE dps.

Or you could try using cooldowns? Also, every tank has an invuln skill at 50.

No they don't. Only PLD does. DRK and WAR have an anti death move, not an invulnerability. They can still go down to 1hp. and if you have 10 mobs hitting on them when they use it, unelss you're a whm about to cast benediction, they're probably going to die.

I would like to point out that no amount of cooldowns will save if you receive no heals.

Funny. I've solo'd dungeon bosses, a few trial bosses, and was one of 3 tanks at the end of a Ridoranna light house run (8% to 0) that all got complete without heals.

DRKS and War's have insane self healing.

[Keizerwilson]

No they don't. Only PLD does. DRK and WAR have an anti death move, not an invulnerability. They can still go down to 1hp. and if you have 10 mobs hitting on them when they use it, unelss you're a whm about to cast benediction, they're probably going to die.

And Living Dead also has 10 seconds before it applies if it procs. Semantics aside it's still a valuable tool that can save a tank if need be comes. Yet, I'm willing to believe in many of these healer DPSing horror stories none of these tanks utilized such tools.

[CarnivalNights]

So plenty of people responded me and I'd like to respond to each of them but I have to do a blanket statement so I don't end up having too long of a post.

My specific example of friends don't play the game to be amazing or decent. They play every once in a while and aren't committed to the game like the rest of us or even someone that's even with them. There's a line that's hard for all of us to come to an agreement to between a casual player and a bad player. Personally, my friends are both. They play when they want, but if another more enticing option comes along (ie: watch a movie with friends, play an even more casual game, etc.). They want to keep Final Fantasy XIV in their computers/PS4. They don't want it in their Youtube/Google search bars, they don't want it on their smart phones, etc. On a Saturday, they'll get up early, go hiking, have lunch with the boys, catch a late movie, then log-in at the end of the day on their PC and sometimes they'll pick FFXIV, if no one wants to play Apex Legends or Madden or Fortnite or etc.

Someone pointed out that I'm enabling bad behavior, but don't get me wrong. I get frustrated too when DPS single target and tanks die because they don't use their Hallowed Ground or whatever, but I'm honestly not an agent of change. Can I make long, lasting impressions in a dungeon/raid/etc? I don't know. Can I make an immediate impression that might or might not carry that player's new found education over? I don't know. Maybe? You've all told me repeatedly about having respect for the rest of the party, but where does that start and end? Just making sure a healer is DPSing is enough or do I also now have the responsibility of having to train an unknown stranger on what I would consider to be proper dungeon etiquette? There are plenty of off-game resources and I shouldn't have to count as a resource. I shouldn't be any individual stranger's keeper in learning this game.

I get it, we all want a better, more skilled community overall, but that requires a lot of re-education and really, it's more on SE at this point that really needs to drive the point home. At the end of it all, we're just individuals and we can't make the same difference and have the same reach as SE does with the community that is most likely a majority of casual/bad/etc players. At the end of the day though, this large majority of bad players will always exist no matter how many resources are available to them. Look at WoW's community. Compared to FFXIV, they have an incredible amount of resources, I mean TONS of stuff. FFXIV's resources pale in comparison. Some of the people in that community have quit their jobs just to develop add-ons full-time (Deadly Boss Mods - Tells you the next mechanic in a fight and what to do) for WoW and there are still people that sit in the fire.

This one post I actually will personally respond to since it's above mine:

A lot of us have things like school and jobs and other responsibilities. Some of us even have families with children to take care of.

I have school 4 days out of the week. I spend what free time I do have playing the game to have fun — be it raiding, farming Ex primals, goofing off with friends, whatever. However, my fun shouldn’t involve dealing with players who don’t want to press buttons because “I play this game to relax, chill dude”. Why does their relaxation take more priority over being respectful of their fellow party members? It’s not a very good excuse, in my opinion.

I'm not talking about raiding or primals. This conversation has nothing to do with that. I've specifically talking about the dungeons used to farm tomestones. No one made any mention of end game content. You goof off with your friends on your own, I have no clue what this has to do with the conversation. This is specifically talking about farming tomestone grind dungeons with ilvl requirements so abysmally low and mechanics telegraphed for days and mobs that die in a few seconds for a reason so that anyone can do them.


I'm sorry, but re-read where my entire post starts off before even responding because you've missed the entire point of conversation.

[HyoMinPark]

So plenty of people responded me and I'd like to respond to each of them but I have to do a blanket statement so I don't end up having too long of a post.

My specific example of friends don't play the game to be amazing or decent. They play every once in a while and aren't committed to the game like the rest of us or even someone that's even with them. There's a line that's hard for all of us to come to an agreement to between a casual player and a bad player. Personally, my friends are both. They play when they want, but if another more enticing option comes along (ie: watch a movie with friends, play an even more casual game, etc.). They want to keep Final Fantasy XIV in their computers/PS4. They don't want it in their Youtube/Google search bars, they don't want it on their smart phones, etc. On a Saturday, they'll get up early, go hiking, have lunch with the boys, catch a late movie, then log-in at the end of the day on their PC and sometimes they'll pick FFXIV, if no one wants to play Apex Legends or Madden or Fortnite or etc.

Someone pointed out that I'm enabling bad behavior, but don't get me wrong. I get frustrated too when DPS single target and tanks die because they don't use their Hallowed Ground or whatever, but I'm honestly not an agent of change. Can I make long, lasting impressions in a dungeon/raid/etc? I don't know. Can I make an immediate impression that might or might not carry that player's new found education over? I don't know. Maybe? You've all told me repeatedly about having respect for the rest of the party, but where does that start and end? Just making sure a healer is DPSing is enough or do I also now have the responsibility of having to train an unknown stranger on what I would consider to be proper dungeon etiquette? There are plenty of off-game resources and I shouldn't have to count as a resource. I shouldn't be any individual stranger's keeper in learning this game.

I wasn’t telling you or your friends that have lives outside of the game that you all are required to teach players (although, if they have questions, if you know the answer, it would be courteous of you to answer them). I was telling you that using the excuse “I have a busy life outside of this game and I play it to relax” to defend lazy play is a poor one to make, and it isn’t an adequate defense for lazy/poor play.

There are plenty of players that don’t play the game to raid or do any sort of bleeding edge content. But that doesn’t mean that they want to deal with lazy party members in their parties. That doesn’t mean that they themselves actively choose to only halfway participate in content, regardless of what it is.

I'm not talking about raiding or primals. This conversation has nothing to do with that. I've specifically talking about the dungeons used to farm tomestones. No one made any mention of end game content. You goof off with your friends on your own, I have no clue what this has to do with the conversation. This is specifically talking about farming tomestone grind dungeons with ilvl requirements so abysmally low and mechanics telegraphed for days and mobs that die in a few seconds for a reason so that anyone can do them.

I'm sorry, but re-read where my entire post starts off before even responding because you've missed the entire point of conversation.

I did read your posts. All of them. I’m saying that, like your friends that have lives, I have a life as well, and I log in to do whatever I want to do just like they do. I wasn’t discussing Savage content versus dungeons; it was just a statement of what I log into the game to do on days that I am free to play. What I’m saying is, I don’t want to deal with players that actively choose to play lazily/poorly because “I’ve had a busy day and just want to relax”, regardless of the type of content involved. And there are plenty of players like myself who don’t want to deal with it.

Please re-read my post before even responding because you missed the entire point of what I was saying.

[HyoMinPark]

You're not dealing with them though, you said it yourself, you're raiding and doing primals. That's content my friends don't do.

I participate in all content. More than just Savage or EX. They were, again, examples of things I do when I log in. Please actually read what I’m writing before you type out a response. I deal with lazy players even in Savage/Extreme, by the way. You’d be amazed at the things you can see in there.

But I’m not specifically talking about your friends; just lazy players in general. Of course, I don’t play with your friends—we aren’t even on the same data center.

You can call them lazy in a video game if you want, but you really have to think about that. Are you seriously calling someone playing a video game lazy?

You can still be lazy while engaging in a video game—it’s called actively not pressing your buttons.

Playing video games doesn’t necessarily equate to being lazy. You’re engaging in an activity—a hobby, if you will. Much like your friends who go out for hikes on Saturdays, late-night movies, and “drinks with the boys”. I wouldn’t call enjoying a hobby “lazy”.

I don't want to go down the road of defining what's enjoyable in a video game, but don't you think it's a bit rich of someone who only goes to school four days a week to call people who work forty hours a week lazy?

Where was I calling people who work 40 hours/week lazy? Nowhere. I was calling people who don’t want to press their buttons in video games because “it’s just a game, chill dude” lazy.

Please utilize your reading comprehension skills.

Don’t you think it’s a bit rich for you to assume that college isn’t work? I did less work at one of my own full-time jobs I worked at before I left to go back to school than I’ve done just in a semester of classes. But, by all means, please tell me more about how little work college is. College itself can be as much work as a full-time job.

I can go back and forth with you on this, but we would all just be arguing in circles.

You aren’t even arguing my points. You’re just erecting strawmen.

At the end of the day, the bad player majority will always rule in any MMO. There's no other way around it because not everyone wants to put effort into every game they play and sometimes they choose an MMO like FFXIV to just shut off. That's just how it goes.

There's plenty of people playing FFXIV because they're fans of Final Fantasy. They want to see the story and sometimes that involves having to do content where you have to deal with them. They're not MMO players, they just want to experience this entry in Final Fantasy. They don't care about rotations, OGCDs and GCDs and buffs. They just want to see the story.

That's what a majority of this forum is forgetting.

What you seem to be forgetting is that there are plenty of other players in the game that do care about the things you listed.

What makes the players who don’t care more important than those who do? Who determined that their version of fun is more important than another person’s? By someone being inherently lazy in content simply because “I don’t wanna work in a video game after working all day at my job/school”, they’re making the rest of their party work to cover their deficits. That’s disrespectful.


EDIT: Nice job deleting your post. Still going to respond to it, though.