What is a "bad player" to you?

[linay]

I once joined a shisui dungeon in progress and the healer was apparently refusing to heal because the other two people vote kicked their dps friend for being afk. Apparently what had happened was the healer had to go away for a while and their friend took over playing for their character to heal and I guess the other two people didn't realize and just saw the DPS being afk and kicked that DPS. So now the healer doesn't want to play with them and did not want to take the penalty for leaving while the other two are refusing to vote kick the healer out of spite and I was caught in the middle of it. Needless to say, we nearly didn't complete the dungeon, but thankfully it was near the end by that point, so we somehow made it through.

When it comes to an MMO where you play with other people, I think those people can be considered "bad players" in that respect.

[Misutoraru]

this kind of thread never end well
each players have their own expectation
for example, doing DF I expect the minimum would be doing their role, i.e. tank holding aggro and def buff, heal keep everyone alive, DPS perform adequate rotation and dmg buff. Above that I consider bonus, especially in DF I am queuing with 3 complete strangers, I have zero idea about their abilities, I would rather be safe than sorry, wiping will waste more time than doing it carefully
but some players expect more like tank stance dancing, heal go full on DPS etc
there aren't any written standard, and it is not so black and white
a player that does not consider good player would not suddenly make it a bad player either
however, I think we would all agree some type of action would definitely consider as bad player,
like intentionally trolling which could be face tanking every AOE and expect heal to take the burden, DPS just spamming 1 single skill, continuously using knock back, always running ahead of tank, or rushing through everything without waiting other players etc
or thing like bad attitude, this would happen to any player, veteran, newbie, well equipped, or someone just began
however to what extend consider to be bad players, everyone have their own indication

[Barraind]

So are they bad players even if they keep everyone alive without risking the well-being of the party?

Possibly, yes.

I have grouped with many bad players in this game, and in relatively few cases does it end in not being able to finish (or kicking them and finishing).


Outside savage raids and some ex trials, you can bumble your way through content in this game pressing buttons with your feet if you really felt like it.

The competency bar for dungeon queues requires barely a step over it, being able to take that step doesnt mean you arent still a "bad" player.

I have had people in my FC who I absolutely dreaded when they asked for help, because it turned into a 2-3 times as long as necessary shitfest because they generally couldn't be bothered to give a crap and actually play. "Were healing this, yaaay, dont take damage I'm not going to cast heals"

Clearing content doesnt mean they weren't absolute garbage as a regular way of playing.

[Penthea]

I have had people in my FC who I absolutely dreaded when they asked for help, because it turned into a 2-3 times as long as necessary shitfest because they generally couldn't be bothered to give a crap and actually play. "Were healing this, yaaay, dont take damage I'm not going to cast heals"

This wouldn't be because of the absence of healer dps though. You would need an actual dps class to be truly woeful to make an instance last twice as long. Likely both dps players would have to be exceptionally bad. Or auto-attacking while afk.

Or you were dying a lot. Which again wouldn't be a healer dps issue.

The competency bar for dungeon queues requires barely a step over it, being able to take that step doesnt mean you arent still a "bad" player.

Similarly just because you aren't playing your class to its full capabilities does not mean you're bad.

In casual content a pure healer who heals well but does no dps is not a bad healer. In the context of savage this changes because it demands more than just hps from healers, however savage is but a tiny sliver of the content in the game. The vast majority of it is casual. A pure healer in casual content is serviceable. Not good, but they're enough to get the job done without much trouble.

Why is it that we so rarely see tanks getting targeted for not doing dps? I often encounter tanks who seem allergic to dropping tank stance. They just spend their time building up enmity that just gets thrown into nothingness because they long since capped it, and maintain tank stance no matter how little mobs tickle them. Or do they get a free pass because fulfilling their primary role happens to do damage?

And how about dps who act like they have zero support abilities? A lot of these are ogcds so they wouldn't even disrupt their dps. In many cases these actually directly affect healers because by giving them less to heal or more mana to spend, they can do more dps. I suppose dps classes get a free pass because they're...dps?

If we're going to call pure healers bad players because they only focus on their primary role, well then the above tanks and dps I mentioned are bad too.

[AxlStream]

This wouldn't be because of the absence of healer dps though. You would need an actual dps class to be truly woeful to make an instance last twice as long. Likely both dps players would have to be exceptionally bad. Or auto-attacking while afk.

Or you were dying a lot. Which again wouldn't be a healer dps issue.

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

[Penthea]

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

I have met plenty of zero dps healers and the instances didn't take two or three times longer. Not even close.

[Gemina]

I have met plenty of zero dps healers and the instances didn't take two or three times longer. Not even close.

It also wasn't any shorter, was it? Again though, it isn't about making the run shorter. In the case of healing, the faster things die the less you have to heal. High DPS is the numero uno damage mitigation tool in this game. It becomes really important in endgame, even just the NM encounters which are still a moderate step above dungeons, trials, and 24-man. The mechanical difficulty for NM raids and 24-man are about equal I would say, but what makes the 8-man raids more difficult is there are fewer players so reliability on everyone doing their jobs correctly is a lot tighter.

Now lets say you don't participate in this content and just do the required duties to complete the MSQ; you don't suddenly become less of a burden to others by not utilizing your full toolkit. The other members of your group are still putting forth more effort than the heals-only healer because in order to clear the dungeon, mobs need to die and you are doing nothing to help make this happen. This is why the heals-only healer is considered being carried. Sure, without your heals they won't get very far. But think about this: How far would you make it without them?

Team effort is present in ALL content, and there is no disputing your courtesy towards your fellow party members when you contribute to offense.

[Kalise]

I think you underestimate the difference a healer makes on trash packs.

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

[Sieben79]

Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

Um, no. I outdps as whm or scholar most of the generic dutyfinder players on big pulls and heal the tank (even the dps if they take damage) on the fly.

Also just do the math: for example

Tank: ~4k
Healer: ~3k
DPS: ~6k
DPS~6k

19k group dps is more than 16k

[Gemina]

I think you underestimate how much faster a dungeon will go if the healer focuses on healing and so the Tank feels safe enough to mass pull.

From my experience, most DF tanks don't care about the capabilities of their healers and mass pull anyway. Many of them do it without checking the gear of their mates, don't ask the healer if he/she is ok with it, and don't use any mitigation CDs. IOW, their own safety and the safety of the group is a non-determining factor. If the healer can't hang and they wipe, then they ease up. It is not difficult for a healer to add offensive skills while also keeping you alive. I would know. I've been doing it for three years, and many other healers even longer than that.

I can't tell you the number of times I've had to take dungeons 1 pack at a time because healer's are too busy spamming Stone/Malefic to cast even a Regen. I've literally died to a single pack of enemies because the healer would just stand there DPS'ing while my health bar dropped.

Vote to have this healer kicked. You can even report them because everyone is obligated to perform their role in duties, and if they aren't healing you then this is totally a reportable offense.

Meanwhile, when I get healers who actually heal, wall to wall pulls it is. Spam me with heals while the DPS and I spam AoE and take out 3-5 packs far, far, far faster than your pathetic healer DPS would have made single packs die.

Pathetic? Really? Ever hear of Assize, Holy, Earthly Star, Gravity, Miasma II and Bane? These AoE healer abilities MELT mob packs, and Assize, ES, and Miasma II have no %reduction based on number of mobs. And the more mobs there are, the more damage they do. These abilities are what ramp up healer DPS because their single target sucks for days and serve as filler for when they have nothing else to do. Rest assured, mob packs are going to die MUCH faster when healers use their AoE offensive skills. This is an undisputable fact.