Exploring Eorzea's Existing Lore

[DrWho2010]

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that the statement Yoshi P made at one point about content like the Diadem (or was it PotD?) & ARR stuff (& how to make it "relevant again") is something they apply to lore we've "already learned": he said that they "don't focus on past content, they move on and learn for future content." I remember someone linking to it on a Eureka thread when someone was complaining about why they didn't just revamp Diadem to a 3.0 version instead of giving us Eureka.

They do a relatively decent job of tying the MSQ content into stuff you learned in the past, because they plan 5 years out, so when you learn something now that makes you go "oh!" later, that was intentional. But as for going back to revisit stuff like old races and things of that nature, I feel like they're more interested in giving us "new shinies to attract new players/keep our attention" than flesh out old content. Sometimes I even worry that Thavnair is going to be a case of "we already learned a little bit about it so people would be bored now, let's go some place new" which is sad, because I've always been interested in it.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe they've softened that stance - we've seen enemies from Lost City hard in the ShB trailer, which means a harken back to the war between Amdapor and Mhach, the War of the Magi (although given that this was the birth of a calamity and that's the whole focus of the MSQ, maybe it's a one off.)

But my gut says that whenever they feel people's interest waning, we'll just get something new, and they won't go back to the old stuff. Which is a shame.

This - they're usually always wanting to create new content. They'll almost never go back to old stuff unless they specifically make a push in that direction for some reason to make it fit into the current story.

They want you to buy the lore books if you're interested in older stuff.

[Lacan]

I still wish each of the starter nations were given storylines like they were in FF 11. I'd even be happy with a series of sidequests or something.

[Iscah]

There aren't any major Duskwight settlements either, apart from the bandit camps we see in the Black Shroud. The Duskwights used to live in the underground city of Gelmorra, but after all the Wildwood Elezens and Midlander Hyur moved out of there, there weren't enough people left to maintain Gelmorra so it is just uninhabitable ruins today. Some few have moved into Gridania, while the rest try to make a living as bandits and brigands - which gives the Duskwights a bad reputation which in turn force them to live as bandits since few people will trust them enough to employ them.

I find it very hard to believe that the entire population of Duskwights are currently either "in Gridania, or living as bandits".

It can be hard to tell the clans apart, since there's an overlap in appearances, but there are no obviously Duskwight NPCs in the city except for that one poor guy getting berated by some Wood Wailers outside the lancers' guild. (Though a few have popped up in quests - eg. the girl from the recent Valentione's event, and a Serpent officer you interact with briefly during MSQ. Also, the main antagonist from the lancer questline.)

Of course, given the general Gridanian attitude towards them, it makes sense that any living in the city are more likely to be of an "able to pass for Wildwood" appearance.

Lore is vague on where the current population of Duskwights are, and how they're living - although the bandits seem to be a minority.

The lorebook says:

• Making their home in the deep forest caves and caverns for centuries, the Duskwight Elezen are the descendents of those who parted ways with their brethren after the founding of Gridania, choosing instead to remain in the stone-hewn chambers of Gelmorra or seek out new subterranean sanctums. Shunning the fetters of government and society, a great majority of the Duskwight keep a wide berth of the city-states, with some even resorting to brigandry as a means of survival. As a result, they are often looked upon with scorn by the citizens of Gridania, and those who have chosen to make their home in the city often suffer undue discrimination at the hands of their neighbours.
• They have long since eschewed contact with other races to pursue their own path in the shadowy seclusion of Eorzea's deep tunnels and caves.
• The customs of the subterranean city of Gelmorra are still practised by the Duskwights to this day, from architectural advances developed to stake out comfortable residences in dank, humid caves to mystical wards that serve to stave off the fury of the elementals.

The problem is, everything we've seen of Gelmorra is in ruins, and the Duskwight archaeologists at Issom-Har are talking like that culture has been long lost to them.

IRIELLE
...Hm? Oh, the ruins you can see down there are part of the ancient subterranean city known as Gelmorra.
For Duskwight Elezen such as ourselves, it represents a valuable and unexpected opportunity to learn more about the settlement where our ancestors once dwelled.

ROLANDAIX
Ah, you are an adventurer, are you not? Tell me, have you any experience in the field of relic hunting? I am currently attempting to catalog all of the artifacts in this area, you see, but am finding the task rather more time-consuming than I had initially anticipated...
I am all but convinced that we stand in what was once Gelmorra's residential district. Alas, I have yet to recover a sufficiency of domestic objects to confirm my theory. Should you happen upon any such items while wandering the area, I would be most grateful if you'd bring them to me.
Back so soon? Are you quite certain you exercised the appropriate amount of care and delicacy in your search? These artifacts are hundreds of years─oh, never mind. Show me what you found.
Yes...these are most certainly examples of Gelmorran tableware. Judging by the shape and ornamentation, they appear to be cups of the kind once used to serve herbal infusions...or possibly vegetable broth. Perfect!
My work here is far from done, but this discovery brings me one tantalizing step closer to realizing my dream: the restoration of these ruins, and their reestablishment as a settlement for the Duskwight Elezen.
Gridanians have long perceived my people as outcasts and brigands, yet if we Duskwights can return a measure of prosperity to this fallen city, we would no longer need to resort to common theft or banditry in order to make ends meet. Imagine it!

Buscarron also gives a brief explanation of them:

BUSCARRON
I'll not have my patrons picking fights with each other over a bit of petty prejudice.
In case you didn't see, the bloke who caught the brunt of that outburst is a Duskwight Elezen. They're a people who shun cities to live in the wilds, making them no better than brigands in the eyes of many.
To be fair, the Duskwights can be an unruly lot, but they ain't so bad once you get to know them. And it don't seem right to bar a whole race of people from the Druthers for the misdeeds of a few.

...and this is prettymuch the entirety of lore we have for them. It's quite frustrating and the facts don't really seem to line up.

One of my characters is a Duskwight, and I really don't know, literally, where he's supposed to be coming from. He isn't a bandit, and I'd like him to be a bit more linked to his culture than just "from Gridania", but there's no clear information about what that culture is. We have a few details but no big picture.

Ishgard is majority Wildwood

More exactly, Ishgard is majority Ishgardian Elezen, a separate clan by lore, but represented in the game using predominantly Wildwood character models.

Ishgard and Gelmorra were separate populations of Elezen, and then the Gelmorrans split into Wildwood and Duskwight clans.

Thavnair would likely be the closest thing to something of a Plainsfolk homeland since they're originally islanders and Thavnair is an island nation. Then again, the flip side to that though is that all we've seen from there are Hyurs.

That's a bit like saying Great Britain would be the closest thing to Hawaii because they're both islands...

But we do have more information about the Plainsfolk. Lalafells originated on the "south sea isles", apparently the Cieldales, and traveled to Eorzea from there. They founded the Fifth Astral Era city-states of Nym and Mhach, and the current clans are descended from those populations.

Plainsfolk are most common on Vylbrand, and still on their original islands as well.

I doubt it would be much of a stretch to shift Duskwights to being general Underdark residents beyond just Gelmorra. But, everyone knows nobody wants to spend time trapped in caves. So, getting to actually see any such underground cities would be unlikely. Besides, being so isolated, they would have the luxury of not really being involved or impacted by the goings on of the surface, further reducing the need or likelihood of ever interacting.

The lorebook information actually makes it sound like this could be the case.

It would be pretty great if we could get to visit a place like that - really nice caves instead of dark and dingy ones. They can be amazingly beautiful.

[ChaseNetwork]

I'm actually pretty curious about how we're going to be expanding moving forward. Except for some very minor nations like Thavnair, we don't really have much to explore anymore. We *should* be exploring Garlemald, which pretty much reveals the entire map we've been given.

There's still 2 more of the 1st Brood who have not been introduced into the story - our only source for even what their names are coming from the encyclopedia. And Meracydia itself being the "homeland" for Dragons. Dragons are aliens, so that's great. We know there are other intelligent lifeforms within our galaxy. Ala Dragons and Omega. So I *guess* we have reason to go say hi to these people. I want to say we don't have the means, but we apparently can get submarines running. So as long as we can break the atmosphere, we have the means. And apparently Dragons can break the atmosphere. So yeah. I guess we somehow have the means to travel through space. :facepalm:. Yoshi did say "maybe 7.0" for going to the moon... Great...

Then there's the New World. We don't actually have much left on our world to discover. >_>;

[KageTokage]

We haven't actually seen a full world map to know how big Meracydia and the New World are. They could be nearly as big as Aldenard for all we know and there definitely are other substantially sized continents judging from what we saw of Hydaelyn from outer space in that 3.4 cutscene on the moon.

Hingashi has also been left largely untouched outside of Kugane and could feasibly serve as a region of its own in the future.

[Hasrat]

The lorebook information actually makes it sound like this could be the case.

It would be pretty great if we could get to visit a place like that - really nice caves instead of dark and dingy ones. They can be amazingly beautiful.

I mean, arguably, creating something of a Duskwight city shouldn't be a huge challenge. Just take something like Kugane and replace the skybox with cave background or something. Some might find it a stretch of disbelief to accept such a large cave as to house an entire city, but eh, it could still be presented well (c'mon, if we're not all already thinking it, just rip off some ideas from Menzoberranzan). Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

Every area presented thus far provides "settlements" and such in surroundings, with scattered aetherytes around for our convenience. But I do struggle a bit to imagine what they could do for that in the Underdark. Which leaves you with potentially something like Kugane, a grand city in a location (Hingashi) that you don't really get to explore.

In summation, while I'm sure there may be solutions to these problems, personal opinion is presently that a Duskwight city/civilization seems perfectly feasible, it's justifying the surroundings (or lack thereof) that provides a greater stumbling block.

[Jaywalker]

Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

I actually think there's a ton of potential with an underdark type setting, some even foreshadowed a bit! Substitute plants with insane fungus/mushroom/etc. forests (I remember reading that Duskwight cuisines uses mushrooms a lot IIRC?), use fauna that has insane lack of pigment and/or eyes similar to cave fish, geode aesthetics, bioluminescent lighting potentially for rule of fantasy, underground lakes and rivers, volcanic activity, could go on! And architecturally could do so much with intricate stonework and building cities into the surrounding caverns. Maybe since there's similar French influence could draw from Rococo vibes or something. Fun juxtaposition between the darkness and spookiness of caves and something very delicate and beautiful.

I'm sure there are folks who wouldn't be interested in this kind of take, but idk I'd love to see something that really experimented and pushed the concept.

Also Hell's Lid is technically subterranean area precedent, so logistically would be doable in Eorzea.

[Jaywalker]

More exactly, Ishgard is majority Ishgardian Elezen, a separate clan by lore, but represented in the game using predominantly Wildwood character models.

Ishgard and Gelmorra were separate populations of Elezen, and then the Gelmorrans split into Wildwood and Duskwight clans.

Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

IIRC that pirate dude who takes WoL to Doma was Ishgardian Duskwight and (while I might be incorrect) I thought there were wiki listings categorizing a bunch of Ishgardians as Wildwood Elezen? I read it as there are different subcultures between various groups of Wildwood Elezen similar to how ex. a Doman Midlander and an Ul'dahn Midlander might be the same subrace but have dramatically different cultures and ethnic features. Also how Yanxian Hellsguard seem to have different cultures from Eorzean Hellsguard while still both being Hellsguard.

Don't mean any of this as some kind of "gotcha", honestly confused here lol. If you don't mind, would you mind clarifying the way this breaks down for you a bit? Like are you categorizing Ishgardian Elezen as a third subrace similar to how Gosetsu is a third subrace of Roegadyn separate from Hellsguard or Seawolves?

[Hasrat]

I'm sure someone else will come along with a bigger better explanation, but as I understood it, basically Ishgard was founded (and isolated itself?) so long ago that the whole subrace thing simply doesn't entirely apply to them.

Re: cave setting, you're entirely right, there's plenty to work with. But, ultimately (I think) they'd still need to make it a point to be clear that the setting in an underground cave/tunnel system, sprawling though it may be. It can be made plenty engaging or visually interesting, but if the area is still big wide open spaces (because we gotta have our flying) and only made "underground" by using impossibly high ceilings, it'd still fall short of, at least, my own personal expectations.
Like I said, the idea of the city sounds entirely possible, with all the expected beautification. But as an entire region, with mobs and outlying settlements and outposts and everything that comes with new areas, I'd foresee a greater challenge. Not impossible, but, they may be better served by making such a place only the city that you visit for quest reasons and less an whole new civilization to explore.

Although, the more I think about it, even the cities in this game feel a little on the small/cramped side, from a player's perspective. Maybe there would be cause/reason enough to divide the entire concept into different/smaller chunks, with the "region" being the entire city cavern itself, big enough to explore all the fun corners.

Idk. I'm certainly biased on this point. Definitely read too many drow novels, so I'd have more than a few high expectations.

[MistakeNot]

Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

The Wildwood/Duskwight division is a strictly Gridanian/Black Shroud thing.
Due to the Elementals not liking people messing with their forest, it used to be the case that nearly everyone who lived in the Black Shroud resided in the underground city of Gelmorra. Eventually they learned to communicate with the Elementals and most moved above ground and founded Gridania. Some of the Elezen wanted to stay in Gelmorra though - they became the Duskwights, while those who created Gridania became the Wildwood.
Before they moved out of Gelmorra the Duskwight/Wildwood split simply did not exist.

By the time Gridania was created and Gelmorra mostly abandoned, the city of Ishgard had already existed for a good while, with plenty of Elezen living there who hadn't gone through the same split that happend in Gridania.

It is similar with the Roegadyn in the Far East. They are a different group from the Seawolves (who originated up in the north before moving to Limsa Lominsa) and from the Hellsguard (who are native to mountain villages around Gyr Abania)