Thread: On the topic of Role Actions in 5.0 and beyond

Originally Posted by mosaicex

Unfortunately FFXIV playerbase seems to disagree.

But if design was done solely around Meta, then we'd only have a total of 8 classes.

Also, this same playerbase also decries about how trash everyone is because they're not playing meta

Originally Posted by Kalise

But if design was done solely around Meta, then we'd only have a total of 8 classes.

I mean, first off you can't "design around meta" unless there were only 8 classes to choose from. Meta is an entirely player-made construct. It's short for metagaming, a tactic players use in order to get the most out of their character / class. All developers can do is try and balance the game so that a player-made meta doesn't vastly outstrip non-meta playstyles, which I think XIV has done to a reasonable degree.

Secondly, like it or not, decisions like this need to take the high-end endgame into deep consideration, because any and every chance will affect them the most. From there you also have to consider trickle-down, because people innately try and copy what successful people do.

TL;DR:
I disagree, balance changes should always be made with endgame in mind, because outside of that endgame, balance doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

TL;DR:
I disagree, balance changes should always be made with endgame in mind, because outside of that endgame, balance doesn't matter.

This doesn't mean some of the design can't be for fun, like the silly traits that don't really matter. Ninja Movement speed and fall damage for example. Major choices like fundamental action changes, sure, but I don't think anyone is going to point out Dragoon unlocking a High Jump trait for your basic jumping as problematic, unless multi-elevation encounter arenas where that matters becomes a thing.

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I mean, first off you can't "design around meta"

You absolutely can.

While metas are predominantly player made, they can be influenced by designs pretty heavily.

For example, if you create a class like say... Dragoon, whom has a monopoly on a Piercing debuff that enhances the damage of all piercing damage against targets with 100% uptime. Then you've pushed the "Meta" towards something wherein if predominantly Piercing based damage dealers are used (I.e. BRD or MCH) in a significant way, then you incentivise also having a DRG in the party too for this debuff that boosts their damage.

Same could be said if BLU was able to group with people with their Peculiar Light, you'd push a meta where you focus on having a lot of Magic damage to capitalize on the massive debuff from Peculiar Light.

Meta's are heavily based around skill interactions.

With them also then being secondarily influenced by misconceptions and/or distorted opinions. (I.e. You could have 3 options for a "Talent" and one of them could be 0.001% more DPS than the others and so someone who did the math would say that statistically, that talent is numerically superior. But then this would be distorted into someone interpreting it as "That talent is best" thus causing the meta to focus around the notion that that talent is the only viable one and the other 2 are trash. Since, people are idiots)

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I disagree, balance changes should always be made with endgame in mind, because outside of that endgame, balance doesn't matter.

Balance should be made with endgame in mind.

But meta =/= endgame.

For example, the current meta has magical DPS like BLM, SMN and RDM as non-viable. Along with selfish DPS SAM.

Yet, you look at top parses for content and literally every party has at least 1 of those classes in the party. With sometimes having popular meta picks like DRG and NIN being left out completely.

If balance was done entirely around meta, BLM, SMN, RDM and SAM would get massive buffs and/or DRG/NIN/BRD would get nerfs. But this would shift the actual balance of endgame quite dramatically because the meta isn't actually accurate and is simply just more popular (Likely because it has stayed pretty much the same for years and meta's don't tend to shift outside some significant wake up call that has people making a big impact with "Off-meta" compositions, to which top parses doesn't accomplish because only complete nerds care about that sort of thing)

Originally Posted by Kalise

For example, the current meta has magical DPS like BLM, SMN and RDM as non-viable. Along with selfish DPS SAM.

There's a lot to sift through here and I don't have time to do it right now, but...no.

As of right now, every job in this game is viable. For all content up to and including Ultimate. Every job, even Black Mage (though that takes a particular level of skill) can complete Ultimate. Also, one of the jobs you listed as non-viable is actually currently meta, the Summoner, with Machinist getting edged out last tier (really, endgame alphascape) because of how much more powerful buffs made them.

Originally Posted by Kalise

For example, the current meta has magical DPS like BLM, SMN and RDM as non-viable. Along with selfish DPS SAM.

If balance was done entirely around meta, BLM, SMN, RDM and SAM would get massive buffs and/or DRG/NIN/BRD would get nerfs.

Where do you get this information, SMN has been a viable pick since it got massive changes about a year ago (I forget the exact patch). It went from being clunky to use to kicking ass and taking names, BLM and RDM on the other hand is really down to party leader preference but they definitely are accepted more than SAM at the very least.