Skillchains and bazaars

[Konsentrate]

Did developers ever discuss adding skillchains or bazaars in XIV?

[Vidu]

Aaah, another "I want FFXIV to be FFXI 2.0" thread?

Disclaimer: I've never played FFXI, so I had to look both those things up.

I might have missunderstood certain parts here, but skillchains sound a bit like our combo-system?
So even if the devs should have never discussed this, I can drop my two cents here on possible reasons for that:
1) Why add a second system when the current combo-system already keeps you busy enough? Depending a little on your job, your rotation already is fairly complexe.
2) How would the skillchain system work in harmony with our current combo-system that we have atm?

From what I understand about skillchains, they wont work well within FFXIV, because the combat here works different from all that I know. The focus is much more on complexe boss-mechanics that require you to pay attention and react to them and still hitting a button every 2 seconds instead of every 2 minutes.
Depending on your job your rotation is already fairly complexe and requires you to absolutly know every second what button to hit next. As you may have noticed FFXIV also doesnt allow for any real customisation in regards on how to play a given job - skillchains sound a bit like they did exactly that? In the intrest of keeping all the jobs balanced, they probably rather keep them static though. And seeing how they treated bluemage I dont see them change that (= a more "free" playstyle comes at the cost of being a limited job).


In regards to the "bazaar"... from my search I guessed you're refering to being able to buy a number of items of your chosing at the marketboard?
Well, given that this game has been running with our current market system for almost 6 years now (I dont know about 1.0), I guess its safe to assume that they have no desire changing that but instead keep this system.

Bottomline: This isnt FFXI. FFXIV works different in some ways and I think thats a great thing because this way everyone can pick the option they prefer - want a system thats like FFXI? Play FFXI. Want a system that works like FFXIV? Play FFXIV.

[Jonnycbad]

Skillchains were a mechanic in FFXI which was the inverse of FFXIV's system. In FFXIV, you start out with 1000 TP and using Weapon Skills on GCD costs TP, which regenerates naturally at set intervals. This system used to mean eventually melees would run out and would require things like Invigorate or Goad to replenish it, but in 4.0 this was obviated. Now TP is just mean to penalize multiple deaths in quick succession.

In FFXI, you started off with 0 TP, and auto attacks (which were 1.5 - 6.5 seconds in length, depending on haste buffs/equipment/weapon type) accrued TP dependant on their delay, with heavier weapons dealing more damage but accruing more TP (and sucked especially for heavy weapons because accuracy capped at 95%). At >100% TP you could use a Weapon Skill, which dealt a consider amount of damage to targets your level or below (most could 1-shot them), but with the right gear and buffs could one-shot or close to one shotting mobs 6-7 levels above you. A melee that used a weapon skill after one preceeding it sometimes proc'd an extra explosion of elemental energy (depending on the skillchain properties of the 2 weaponskills used in the sequence).

You had about 2 seconds to use your WS to proc the Skillchain explosion after a WS that proceeded, so melee needed to coordinate and watch their co-melee. All weapon skills that hit the target (except for a few oddballs) had properties. You could even chain 3-4 weaponskills together and create more complex skillchains procing off of lower level ones. The skillchain explosion dealt damage equal to 50-300% of the weapon skill that activated it, in elemental magic damage (lv1 SC could be any of 8 elements, lv2 SC were dual-elements, Lv3 SC were 4 elements). Additionally, mages could deal vastly increased damage in a short 3-sec window after a skillchain if the spell corresponded to the element of the skillchain, and debuffs would gain increased chances of sticking as well (magic resistance was a thing).

This was a way for melee and mages to synergize, and on mobs that had vastlyyyy high defense (like bosses/raids), this was a huge boon, because melee was often heavily resisted but magic was usally not. For example, fighting Nidhogg in XI, a DRG could use Wheeling Thrust for 700 damage (loldrg), and a SAM could use Tachi: Kasha for 1200 damage, which would create "Skillchain: Light", dealing an extra 1200 damage (if the order was reversed, it would only have done 700 because which ever WS closed the skillchain is the damge that the skillchain does--so you had "opener/closer melees". Because "Light" was a level 3 skillchain comprising of Lightning/Fire/Wind/Holy, any spells of those elements would be buffed. So right when the DRG used Wheeling Thrust, you'd have 5-6 BLMs begin casting Thunder IV (which was about 7-s cast). When the SAM used their skill, the skillchain would proc and the BLMs would have finished casting and then you'd have a volley of 3000 damage Thunder IV's go off. Then this cycle would repeat as soon as the DRG and SAM regained >100% TP, which was about 7-10 autoattacks (so about 20-40 seconds, depending on haste/accuracy/double attack procs/buffs that increase TP gain like Jump or Meditate, etc).

Anyway, because in FFXIV each melee has their own proc and combo system, and some synergize well in terms of debuffing the target to slashing or giving everyone crit buff, etc, there's no need for a skillchain system. Ranged refresh TP/MP, casters reduce magic damage, melee reduce physical damage, tanks reduce oncoming damage, healers shield and buff. Each role synergizes with another already. Since FFXI jobs were mostly independent, the only way they could synergize is with SC/MB.

As for bazaars, we had something like in 1.0 but it wouldn't work in FFXIV now. Think about it....if you saw something you liked in someone's bazaar and they teleported away, you can't buy it. People are popping in and out of existence with joining duties/raids and porting to aetherytes, not like in XI where transportation was almost always relegated to footing it (no mounts in dungeons or in-door areas). So they gave us retainers which are static bazaars that don't move that people can visit and buy items directly from them, while we're out adventuring. We also have market board which is vastly superior to the FFXI auction house because the price of the items listed is not hidden and we don't have to bid to win it, moreover we can search for the item we want...in FFXI you had to go through a series of menus and there was no way to search by typing in a search term.

[Allistar]

Aaah, another "I want FFXIV to be FFXI 2.0" thread?

Disclaimer: I've never played FFXI, so I had to look both those things up.

so unfortunately because you never played XI or XIV 1.0 you have a slight misunderstanding of how skillchains and bazaars work. FYI when final fantasy XIV first launched we had skill chains and bazaars. Bazaar are where you set up items for sale on your character so as you run around the world other people would see that you have stuff for sale and buy them directly from you as opposed to posting it on market board. Skillchains on the other hand are essentially combos of weapon skills between players as opposed to one player chaining one weapon skill to another you would have let's say paladin uses a weapon skill and then a dragoon uses its weapon skill and they would create a chain together which would do sometimes double or sometimes quadruple the amount of damage that the individual weapon skills of would have done on their own you should look up a YouTube video to see exactly what I'm referring to reading about it is nice but it doesn't give you the visual or fully explain it the way a video might if you see it in action

[Vidu]

so unfortunately because you never played XI or XIV 1.0 you have a slight misunderstanding of how skillchains and bazaars work. FYI when final fantasy XIV first launched we had skill chains and bazaars. Bazaar are where you set up items for sale on your character so as you run around the world other people would see that you have stuff for sale and buy them directly from you as opposed to posting it on market board. Skillchains on the other hand are essentially combos of weapon skills between players as opposed to one player chaining one weapon skill to another you would have let's say paladin uses a weapon skill and then a dragoon uses its weapon skill and they would create a chain together which would do sometimes double or sometimes quadruple the amount of damage that the individual weapon skills of would have done on their own you should look up a YouTube video to see exactly what I'm referring to reading about it is nice but it doesn't give you the visual or fully explain it the way a video might if you see it in action

Thanks for the explantion!

I have to say that it still sounds like something that would not work in our current game, which has different systems in place to deal with those "mechanics".

I see little benefit from not using a marketboard to buy things to be honest. It sounds terribly inconvenient... We can set up retainers in our yards and sell gear using the mannequins now, but I doubt that many people use those features for "buisness"-purposes and focus on the decorative element instead (I know that I do that - and that I would never run around in a housing area, trying to find a retainer that sells the item that I need right now).
I dont even see a benefit in adding this as a system second to the marketboard in some way - I just dont think that its something that people would actually use. I bet that even those who might request it now, would use it to buy two or three items and then return to the market board.

And from what I read about skillchains now... nope, still dont work within FFXIV. One of the main features of this game is supposed to be that you can clear any content with any combination of jobs. Yes, we have some meta-stuff aswell and yes, some syngery between certain jobs exist (like how you absolutly want to take a dragoon with your when you have a bard/maschinist), but this sounds like you depended way more on having the right combination of jobs. Just not gonna work here.

And no matter how the skillchain-system worked in detail, its clear enough to me that it differed a lot from our battle-combo-system and couldnt just be integrated into that, but would rather require an overhaul of the whole basic gameplay of FFXIV.
And why would the devs do that? Why SHOULD the devs do that when our current system is working? Hint: "Because I liked skillchains better" isnt a valid answer - or well, it is a valid answer but one that has an easy solution: Go play FFXI then...
(Last part not directed at you, Allistar, more a general thing... sorry, I'm getting a little bit annoyed at requests that basically seem to aim at changing FFXIV into FFXI. I like FFXIV - mostly - the way it is. And if someone likes the basic gameplay of FFXI, they may play FFXI. At least thats my humble opinion. I'm all for taking ideas and concepts from other games and adjust them to fit this one - but I have... issues with people just "requesting" things to be like FFXI without thinking how and IF they could fit into the basic gameplay of this game at all...)

[Vahlnir]

Skillchains wouldn't work quite as well in FF XIV as it currently stands. Bazaars I wouldn't mind seeing again though. They were neat in FF XI. With the MB and retainers it is probably unnecessary but it would add another option to buy/sell items.

[Konsentrate]

So gonna just reply quickly to explain, yes sorry.

For skillchains it was simply combos that could be done with multiple players. So a WAR could land the end of their Storm's Path combo and a MNK could land the end of their Snap Punch combo and if done at the right time a skillchain could be trigger which maybe increases dmg a small bit. A mage would be able to hit an elemental spell that could hit for extra damage if done at the right time. Made the battle a little more strategic among players.

They actually had this in XIV at first, in a way but scrapped it--can't recall what it was called. I would love to see them enhance it, even a little. It doesn't seem like "I should just go play XI" when I can easily come into "General Discussion" and start a discussion.

Bazaars would simple be a way to see a small list of items on the person when you check them. Even if it was a few it would a be nice addition (even if they only showed up in towns).

[Gemina]

Snip...

Skill chains were a convoluted system in FFXI that were eventually abandoned completely by the time I left that game. TP instead of being a readily available resource as it is in FFXIV, was a resource you built up by causing and taking damage in XI iirc. You had to be able to build this up to a minimum of 100% in order to unleash a weaponskill. These weaponskills had modifiers through equipment mods and building the TP gauge past 100% that affected the overall damage caused from them. Skill chains, as the name implies, involved at least two players using their weaponskills in tandem in order to create an effect causing even more damage to the mob. This effect had an elemental property attached to it, which would further modify the damage to the mob depending on if it was weak, neutral, or strong against said element. This also opened the window for mages to contribute to the damage via Magic Bursts.

So you have to know the mob's elemental weakness, look at a skill chain chart, and determine the best possible according to the weapons - NOT jobs - in your party. So as an example, a scythe wielding DRK might have to switch to a greatsword for the optimal skill chain, but then this DRK might tell you that his/her skill level with that weapon is too low to have reliable accuracy. A lot of the time, one player would be holding on to their weaponskill waiting for their chaining partner to build up their TP due to the accuracy issues in that game.

Starting to get a gist why it was abandoned? xD
It is a really good thing that SE abandoned this system entirely, and also getting rid of TP come ShB. These type of resources are antiquated and behind the times.

As for Bazaars, I know they were still present back in 1.0. I am pretty sure I know exactly why these are no longer with us, and it's because of players going AFK for long periods of time, turning their avatar into a non-interactive merchant with limited goods. This won't fly now, and we have retainers which basically serve the same purpose and allow for transactions to take place while logged out of the game.

To OP, these two systems are still present but have evolved to be more convenient and less cumbersome overall to the game and its players. Jobs still interact with one another, and perhaps ever more so in FFXIV. We have things like a NIN combo placing a slashing debuff on the mob that benefits all jobs that use slashing damage, ogcd skills that weaken a mob's damage so that their unavoidable attacks do less, and even skills that tether two players together.

I have to agree with Vidu here, and systems belonging to XI should remain there. There are things about XI that I do/did enjoy more than XIV, but keeping those things there allows me to continue to appreciate what that game meant to me at one point in time.

[Konsentrate]

Thanks for the explantion!

I have to say that it still sounds like something that would not work in our current game, which has different systems in place to deal with those "mechanics".

I see little benefit from not using a marketboard to buy things to be honest. It sounds terribly inconvenient... We can set up retainers in our yards and sell gear using the mannequins now, but I doubt that many people use those features for "buisness"-purposes and focus on the decorative element instead (I know that I do that - and that I would never run around in a housing area, trying to find a retainer that sells the item that I need right now).
I dont even see a benefit in adding this as a system second to the marketboard in some way - I just dont think that its something that people would actually use. I bet that even those who might request it now, would use it to buy two or three items and then return to the market board.

And from what I read about skillchains now... nope, still dont work within FFXIV. One of the main features of this game is supposed to be that you can clear any content with any combination of jobs. Yes, we have some meta-stuff aswell and yes, some syngery between certain jobs exist (like how you absolutly want to take a dragoon with your when you have a bard/maschinist), but this sounds like you depended way more on having the right combination of jobs. Just not gonna work here.

And no matter how the skillchain-system worked in detail, its clear enough to me that it differed a lot from our battle-combo-system and couldnt just be integrated into that, but would rather require an overhaul of the whole basic gameplay of FFXIV.
And why would the devs do that? Why SHOULD the devs do that when our current system is working? Hint: "Because I liked skillchains better" isnt a valid answer - or well, it is a valid answer but one that has an easy solution: Go play FFXI then...
(Last part not directed at you, Allistar, more a general thing... sorry, I'm getting a little bit annoyed at requests that basically seem to aim at changing FFXIV into FFXI. I like FFXIV - mostly - the way it is. And if someone likes the basic gameplay of FFXI, they may play FFXI. At least thats my humble opinion. I'm all for taking ideas and concepts from other games and adjust them to fit this one - but I have... issues with people just "requesting" things to be like FFXI without thinking how and IF they could fit into the basic gameplay of this game at all...)

XIV has gone through a ton of transformations. It will certainly go through more. If making these suggestions piss you off or something, why even reply with anything? I didn't ask if you thought it would work, I asked if anyone knew of developers discussing them.

[Konsentrate]

As for Bazaars, I know they were still present back in 1.0. I am pretty sure I know exactly why these are no longer with us, and it's because of players going AFK for long periods of time, turning their avatar into a non-interactive merchant with limited goods. This won't fly now, and we have retainers which basically serve the same purpose and allow for transactions to take place while logged out of the game.

I don't recall bazaars being available in 1.0 but perhaps it's just been so long I can't remember.