Eureka Finale

[Bright-Flower]

Personally, I'd prefer they avoid tying Story Elements (at least Major ones) to the Extreme/Savage versions of Trials and Raids. Including key story elements in the harder versions kind of defeats the entire point of the Normal Mode Trials and Raids. The Normal Modes are there, more than anything else, to allow players to experience the questline, story, and the fights at a very approachable difficulty level. If you don't even get the entire story from it, it's not really serving its purpose anymore. Sure, normal mode raids still offer some loot to level alternate classes/catch up if you're behind, but their primary purpose is to allow you to experience the story.

The Extreme/Savage versions are built instead to test your mettle as a player, and offer rewards with the most powerful equipment in the game, as well as some smaller bonuses such as titles, mounts, minons etc. I'd think the loot should be enough incentive. I think it might be fair to tie smaller Lore elements to Savage/Extreme tiers though. For example, maybe defeating the virtual Warring Triad members might offer a few more lore insights into the Allagan empire or the Warring Triad's original civilizations, but as a whole I'd prefer to avoid that.

That said, the Baldesion Arsenal does work as kind of a special exception, since there isn't a "normal" version of it to provide story to players. Still, I'd prefer they don't continue this trend in the future.

Personally I think what they should have done was wrap up the main Eureka story in Hydatos, and give BA it's own questline rather than making it the resolution to the overarching Eureka story. (And a resolution that overrides the choice you get to make to boot.) Like the algalon example I mentioned earlier from WoW. Uldular had the 'main' story of stopping Yogg-Saron and a hard mode side story for high end raiders. Normal mode raiders could complete the story that was built up through the expansion, while hardcore raiders got a little something extra without gating off the conclusion to casual story arcs.

[Alleo]

I don't have an issue with story elements being locked behind tougher content. If anything, I wish it happened more often. Aside from being a great incentive to overcome a particular challenge it allows for greater scope in regards to showing off a particular opponents full talent. Many of the EX and Savage fights are a lot more theatrical and mechanically heavy than their story mode counterparts and it'd be great to see that reflected in canon.

I think the problem with Eureka and BA is that this could be impossible for players after this expansion. You can still do any savage raid expansions later. Heck with the increased levels you can do them unsynch later with maybe 1-2 other people and see the story. Eureka itself has its own leveling system. Thus in the next expansions people still have to level through the whole Eureka (which is seemingly already not done by that many of the players) and then somehow find over 50 people to clear that dungeon. As far as we know right now you cant unsynch it thus it could happen that the whole part of this story will forever be locked away. And that is imo (in a game with mostly casual players and that sees story as one of their main points) just bad.

[Theodric]

It's a matter of personal preference, I suppose. So there's no right or wrong answer!

[Anonymoose]

Getting back to the events themselves, a bit, I'm still working on trying to iron all the points out into the correct interpretations.

The Primal

A box (that is a primal) which forges tainted weapons (that becomes new primals) which temper, twist, and consume their wielders (who people mistake for primals) is certainly a lot to unpack. Krile assumes that if people wanted to summon a weaponsmith, you'd expect something like Byregot, but that's perhaps easy to explain. We're talking rebellion against the Allagan Empire, likely well past the aetherochemical revolution. What if Eureka arose in the era of the abandonment of the gods, and the Ascians just had the rebels imagine a shortcut to victory - basically a "Fabrication Node" that grants wishes.

Odin / Zantetsuken

So, have the writers assented to Eureka re-definig Odin and claiming the Dark Divinity as its own? Maybe! There's a chance it's a chicken-and-egg situation, but these weapons do act suspiciously like Zantetsuken. Moreover, we have Shin-Zantetsuken and Raiden both harking back to it. On one hand, we might assume that Urth led a faction of rebels and wished for a weapon for her champion, only to regret what Odin became and sacrificed herself to seal the weapon away; Wiyu would have been an Allagan summoner whose mission to contend with Odin met with disaster. (This doesn't address the legend of the Au Ra or the legend of the Allagan Hero very well.) On the other hand, not one example pre-dates Odin. If he was part of a pattern, wouldn't you assume something was his contemporary? Ejika knew what Odin was before he requested a weapon. Raiden already knew who Odin was. What if Eureka was summoned after Odin, with similar things in mind? Perhaps Eureka isn't claiming Odin after all.

So the mystery rolls on, perhaps. Either way I doubt they concluded his involvement with the game at LV50.
(Not that I didn't get bored of them blaming everything on him XI; go back far enough and everything is connected to him.)

The Destruction of Val and Emmerololth

I still can't work this out; Galuf's Memo is quite strange.

The Isle of Val ceases communication in 2.1 (Build on the Stone), which leads to the confirmation that the island is gone in 2.2 (Through the Maelstrom). From 2.2 until 4.1, it is assumed that Val was destroyed by a spell like in power to Ultima. We (as players) can assume that this was true (to the writers) at the time. We know that the person assigned to create our horizontal progression content (odd-number-patch, non-raid busywork) requested to use Val after-the-fact, leading to "new revelations" (recall our discussion about addition-retcons, the healthier kind of retroactive continuity adjustments?).

We know that Krile Baldesion was one of the Students who was on Val at the time of the "attack" and it is confirmed that Hydaelyn saved her; they match the same aetheric signature to all three known sites of divine intervention (The Word of the Mother): The Praetorium (Warrior of Light), the Isle of Val (Krile), and the Sil'dih Aqueducts (Minfilia). In Eureka, Krile revises her hypothesis, concluding beyond the shadow of a doubt that Val was - in fact - teleported. She muses that perhaps it teleported to escape the Ultima blast, but simultaneously concludes that, even if that were true, it doesn't matter.

Galuf's memo states that they sealed the primal for a while, but upon its discovery by the Ascians, they "drowned the entire isle in the Lifestream." This can't be the teleportation itself; that's not how teleportation works. Teleportation (including Flow) "entaileth the reduction of the corporeal form into its constituent aether, that the caster might enter the Lifestream, and ride its currents thereby" (Aetherial Trail). However, notice that the memo says, "And now, we await our own end. Even as I write, the Isle of Val drifts the Lifestream." You can't write a memo if you're mid-teleport. Ergo he must have teleported the island (somehow) into the actual Aetherial Sea (or at least a thick subterranean "river" or "point of confluence" or something).

That would explain the destruction of Emmerololth; the Ascians don't go there. Even if it could survive a quick dip in a teleport (Y'shtola's soul held out in a vein for enough time to assume this is possible), escaping from the Sea would be ... complicated. This of course calls into questions why the Ascians utilize a completely different means of teleport in the first place (Rule of Cool + Why even risk it?), but sure, we can handwave it. Let's say the island arrives in the sea and it takes a while for the blender to really go to work on all the physical contents, and meanwhile the "Dawn Warrior" clique (Galuf and friends) keep Emmerololth from using his Crystal of Darkness long enough to hold his head out the window or whatever.

What I can't work out is the timeline. Val falls under attack in 2.1, and is confirmed missing in 2.2.

Not only does Emmerololth have a speaking line in 2.3, all his friends are there, so you can't just be like, "Whoops. Wrong name." There are 14 platforms, clearly meant to represent each world, and every one is filled. The recent "new revelations" about Emet-selch add a 15th Ascian to our mix, but having the Source represented twice while another world goes un-represented seems unlikely, and if Emet is Solus he was definitely pretending to be bedridden or napping at the time, anyway.

So did Emmerololth just abandon the attack on Val, and perhaps the Aetherial Sea, to come to a meeting, and then go back, perhaps to the Sea? Or did Nabriales or some underlings attack the first time (recall he all but admitted "he" Ultima'd the island to Minfilia in 2.5, or at least implied knowledge of the attack), and then Emmerololth was sent in after-the-fact and got wiped out? That sounds unlikely, especially the part where he knowingly teleports into the Sea to get killed. (Maybe Corguevais attacked the first time and then Nabriales / Lahabrea set Emmerololth up get him out of the way, trololol).

There's always the possibility that Ascian names are titles or are passed down or something, but it really doesn't fit with anything we know; especially that it's considered meaningful when we take out an overlord at all. I suppose if Solus becomes the new Lahabrea and Emet-selch was somewhere else all along, we could try our best to retcon Emmerololth a new stand-in, but that's pretty messy. What could it even be blamed on? "Oh, they never bothered to replace Nabriales or Igeyorhm because... uh... their worlds were already rejoined and the void, respectively!"

And then - even then - the unmaking of Nabriales is enough to cause Elidibus and Lahabrea to discuss their discomfort at the destruction of what should have been eternal, as if this was the very first time it'd ever happened. What about Emmerololth? In spite of all of Galuf's anachronistic knowledge (but hey, he was a smart dude, maybe he figured it out on his own slightly before Minfilia and Moenbryda), was he just wrong about defeating him at all? Did he get away? What was the point of even giving the players this memo, then?

Ah, well. Either I'm missing something or the writers will work it out. We're a lucky fanbase with a dedicated team who seems to want all the wrinkles ironed out when the final version of the game is set in stone.

[Lauront]

So did Emmerololth just abandon the attack on Val, and perhaps the Aetherial Sea, to come to a meeting, and then go back, perhaps to the Sea? Or did Nabriales or some underlings attack the first time (recall he all but admitted "he" Ultima'd the island to Minfilia in 2.5, or at least implied knowledge of the attack), and then Emmerololth was sent in after-the-fact and got wiped out? That sounds unlikely, especially the part where he knowingly teleports into the Sea to get killed. (Maybe Corguevais attacked the first time and then Nabriales / Lahabrea set Emmerololth up get him out of the way, trololol).

There's always the possibility that Ascian names are titles or are passed down or something, but it really doesn't fit with anything we know; especially that it's considered meaningful when we take out an overlord at all. I suppose if Solus becomes the new Lahabrea and Emet-selch was somewhere else all along, we could try our best to retcon Emmerololth a new stand-in, but that's pretty messy. What could it even be blamed on? "Oh, they never bothered to replace Nabriales or Igeyorhm because... uh... their worlds were already rejoined and the void, respectively!"

And then - even then - the unmaking of Nabriales is enough to cause Elidibus and Lahabrea to discuss their discomfort at the destruction of what should have been eternal, as if this was the very first time it'd ever happened. What about Emmerololth? In spite of all of Galuf's anachronistic knowledge (but hey, he was a smart dude, maybe he figured it out on his own slightly before Minfilia and Moenbryda), was he just wrong about defeating him at all? Did he get away? What was the point of even giving the players this memo, then?

Ah, well. Either I'm missing something or the writers will work it out. We're a lucky fanbase with a dedicated team who seems to want all the wrinkles ironed out when the final version of the game is set in stone.

I actually think it is possible that the Overlords can be replaced, and that their names are in part titular in nature, however it would likely need to be an individual with a powerful Echo and deeply devoted to Zodiark. That cuts down the potential replacements by quite a bit. It could also explain Elidibus's interest in Unukalhai, who was a potential WoL. No doubt he seeks out those blessed with the Echo on behalf of his god.

Up to now, we weren't aware of the distinction between the Paragons of the Source, and those not of it, so I think it is worth entertaining such possibilities with regard to the Ascians, as we actually know very little about them, and won't most likely know much more until 5.0 or later even. If, for instance, the requirement to become an Overlord is to have been some manner of Warrior of Darkness (or better yet, a WoL turned WoD, turned Ascian), at some point, it could render the eligible pool of Overlords very small indeed. I agree though that in Emmerololth's case it does not make much sense to assume that there was a swap of individuals with the title held constant. Even if replacement is possible, it is unlikely to be that straightforward or quick. The note Galuf left suggests he was somewhat aware of what would be required to destroy an Ascian for good (and I am guessing the same goes for any being with their kind of mastery over the Echo), but whether he in fact took all the necessary steps is another question. Maybe he just witnessed what he thinks was the Ascian's annihilation, perhaps assuming she could not recover due to the location they were in. He could have had his own pet theories on how to circumvent their immortality, whether this would succeed, or not.

Still, such a powerful being could in all honesty be able to simply project its presence to the meeting with the other Ascians. There's pretty big unresolved questions about it all, in terms of the timeline, but also as below, regarding what they would really get out of it.

When the notes say Eureka could drain the land of its aether to forge a new Mothercrystal, does it not imply something like Hydaelyn or Zodiark? It makes me wonder 1) are the limits to a Primal truly just the imagination of its worshipers and the amount of aether available to it? and 2) in what way does this benefit the Ascians? They already have a god, whom they don't intend to replace. Would they seek to graft another crystal to Hydaelyn and allow Zodiark to then transfer his consciousness into it? It doesn't change much else for them, as the sheer quantity of aether required would probably mean the Rejoinings would need to proceed regardless. Obviously, the Primal could manifest this power in other ways, but that was the specific example given. If anything, the corruptive weapons would seem of greater interest, and also you would think that they could replicate the result by simply having another group contrive a Primal like Eureka. So I have to wonder what was of such great interest to Emmerololth there. Perhaps the fact that Eureka could cause a great deal of mischief.

The other thing I have to wonder about is whether a similar process resulted in the High Seraph's creation, since a world with enough aether to allow for Ultima to be freely channeled would provide a primal (or other tool) similar to Eureka with the means of accomplishing such an end. The lore blurb in her card is pointing to a creation process similar to but not identical to a Primal, particularly as whatever she was before then, was able to wield Ultima, but apparently she lacked self-consciousness until later. She is obviously meant to mirror her XII counterpart's rebellious ways, and probably does in many respects, but I am now wondering if there's a connection and she was intended as some kind of heretical imitation of Hydaelyn.

Now, I don't mind some story content being behind...but I want the entire story behind it. LIke let's say that the Alexander raid story had on savage mode and no normal mode. As a side story that was self contained I wouldn't mind it being behind difficult content.

What really irks me here is that they said you could complete the Eureka story without doing BA, but that's actually not the case. BA should have just been something extra, or had its own story separate from the main Eureka story.

I'm of the same mind on that.

[Cilia]

I'm not a fan of locking major story elements behind "difficult" content.

Back when I first started playing MMOs (back in WoW's BC days), you got a ton of build-up to the story endings which take place in raids... only to get screwed over when you won't or can't commit to progression raiding. WoW still does this, to an extent, having had the ending to 8.0 locked behind the rough equivalent of an Extreme / Savage dungeon. (This was alleviated in 8.1, but even so.)

If EX Primals were required for story progression I'd probably be stuck at Susano'o, given my FC's ill-fated foray into endgame content. All of the weapons and the dye-enabled equipment is already locked behind EX / Savage fights, along with the fun toys like mounts and some minions... and the Savage versions of Raid fights already get an exclusive phase.

Really, I think Shinryu was the perfect balance between "difficult" and "accessible." Difficult enough you needed some practice and patience, but accessible enough that a rando group could do it after a few tries as long as people paid attention.

As for Eureka... I'm kind of sad to see there's so much locked away there. I did Anemos but couldn't stand it, and since the relic is what keeps me playing outside the MSQ haven't had much to do during Stormblood. Ah well.

Back to trying to figure out how to talk my DM into letting me play a half-dragon after wrapping up the current module, hopefully next session...

[Bright-Flower]

I'm not a fan of locking major story elements behind "difficult" content.

Back when I first started playing MMOs (back in WoW's BC days), you got a ton of build-up to the story endings which take place in raids... only to get screwed over when you won't or can't commit to progression raiding. WoW still does this, to an extent, having had the ending to 8.0 locked behind the rough equivalent of an Extreme / Savage dungeon. (This was alleviated in 8.1, but even so.)

If EX Primals were required for story progression I'd probably be stuck at Susano'o, given my FC's ill-fated foray into endgame content. All of the weapons and the dye-enabled equipment is already locked behind EX / Savage fights, along with the fun toys like mounts and some minions... and the Savage versions of Raid fights already get an exclusive phase.

Really, I think Shinryu was the perfect balance between "difficult" and "accessible." Difficult enough you needed some practice and patience, but accessible enough that a rando group could do it after a few tries as long as people paid attention.

As for Eureka... I'm kind of sad to see there's so much locked away there. I did Anemos but couldn't stand it, and since the relic is what keeps me playing outside the MSQ haven't had much to do during Stormblood. Ah well.

Back to trying to figure out how to talk my DM into letting me play a half-dragon after wrapping up the current module, hopefully next session...

Yeah. I hate it when a story begins and is developed throughout casual content, such as quests in WoW or specifically here, the easy if time consuming Eureka grind, but then the ending is locked away in difficult content. WoW raids were like this up until the introduction of LFR. Sure now and then you would get a disconnected raid story. I don't think Mogushan Vault for example really tied into anything outside of raids. Even the one boss that comes back in Throne of Thunder you only see in the two raids. But you get things like not seeing the end of Illidan's story etc.

Now, I don't mind some story content being behind...but I want the entire story behind it. LIke let's say that the Alexander raid story had on savage mode and no normal mode. As a side story that was self contained I wouldn't mind it being behind difficult content.

What really irks me here is that they said you could complete the Eureka story without doing BA, but that's actually not the case. BA should have just been something extra, or had its own story separate from the main Eureka story.

[SannaR]

Man I haven't gotten to this point in Eureka, but just reading Yoshida's reply concerning the endings I'm not sure how I feel the BA ending being a happy little accident and not to be thought of as a true or hidden ending.

[Crushnight]

Man I haven't gotten to this point in Eureka, but just reading Yoshida's reply concerning the endings I'm not sure how I feel the BA ending being a happy little accident and not to be thought of as a true or hidden ending.

That then begs the question on what the canonical ending is is it
A. Ejika choice route and clear BA
B. Krile choice route and clear BA
C. Ejika choice route no BA
or D. Krile choice route no BA

Baseline it really only effects minor characters but if Yoshida's comments are that BA options are 'Happy accidents' then the true ending is either C or D which one will probably never be elaborated on but it begs the question would we see more stuff like this in ShB?

[Moomba33]

Man I haven't gotten to this point in Eureka, but just reading Yoshida's reply concerning the endings I'm not sure how I feel the BA ending being a happy little accident and not to be thought of as a true or hidden ending.

Having been lucky enough to clear BA this week I find Yoshida's comment baffling. I did Krile's path and the Eureka story feels like it's being left on a "To be continued" without the extra scene from BA. The BA part feels like the actual ending and not a bonus.

Edit: For anyone else who like me was worried about story content behind difficult content in my opinion BA is on the same level as a 24 man alliance raid mechanically and the dps checks are trivialized by the elemental + 2 gear. It's mostly a time sink as attempts take a lot of time to organize and you have limited options for recovering if a fight goes poorly.