Blue Mage DPS Versus Other Casters

[Kalise]

Are you sure they're additive?

From my testing, yes.

Buffs stack additively, as do debuffs.

However, buffs x debuffs are multiplicative.

So for example, with BLU:

Maim and Mend stacks additively with Bristle.

Off-Guard stacks additively with Peculiar Light.

M&M/Bristle stack multiplicatively with Off-Guard/Peculiar Light.

Similar thing for BLM with Astral Fire and Maim and Magick (I.e. Comparing how much damage Fire I deals at 1, 2 and 3 stacks of Astral Fire and checking the increase vs the expected if M&M was multiplicative with the boost from AF)

They're not, though.

They are though.

It's only relevant if you want to consider burst damage within a window though, such as during a particular boss phase or capitalizing on an outside buff/debuff.

Otherwise, it's just adding to the rotation. Much like how Convert adds additional Fire I's to the rotation for DPS increase.

[Rongway]

[In re: Fire III replacing Fire I]They are though.
It's only relevant if you want to consider burst damage within a window though, such as during a particular boss phase or capitalizing on an outside buff/debuff.

I'm talking about average potency per GCD. Firestarter Fire IIIs are in addition to Fire Is, and will increase the denominator as well as the numerator. This needs to be taken into account.

The following all cost the same MP, given Firestarter procs:

B3+T3+F3  +F1   +F1   +F1   +F1   +F1    => 3287 potency /  8 GCDs, average 411 potency/GCD  ( 7.78% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1   +F1   +F1   +F1    => 3849 potency /  9 GCDs, average 428 potency/GCD  (25.92% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1   +F1   +F1    => 4411 potency / 10 GCDs, average 441 potency/GCD  (34.56% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1   +F1    => 4973 potency / 11 GCDs, average 452 potency/GCD  (23.04% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1    => 5535 potency / 12 GCDs, average 461 potency/GCD  ( 7.68% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3 => 6097 potency / 13 GCDs, average 469 potency/GCD  ( 1.02% chance)

Expected potency/GCD: 440 + adjustments for additional Thundercloud procs

[Phoenicia]

From my testing, yes.

Buffs stack additively, as do debuffs.

However, buffs x debuffs are multiplicative.

So for example, with BLU:

Maim and Mend stacks additively with Bristle.

Off-Guard stacks additively with Peculiar Light.

M&M/Bristle stack multiplicatively with Off-Guard/Peculiar Light.

What's your testing methodology? Because I have done this testing extensively and there is NOT a single buff that is additive. Unless it is a buff that replaces another (Greased Lighting 3 replacing 2 and 2 replacing 1).

ALL buffs and debuffs stack maltiplicatively. This is EXACTLY why the meta-comp is so strong and desired despite most buffs are 5 or 10%.

A simple test of casting Fire 1 from neutral and then comparing it to casting Fire 1 in AF3.. It is exactly 80% higher (my sample of 35 casts yielded 79.86%). Both Fire 1 in neutral and AF3 Fire 1 are affected by M&M.

For mitigation (since you tank you should know this), try popping Rampart while in Shield Oath, Rampart reduces the damage ALREADY reduced by ShO by 20%. You can try it by going to any world mob, gather a few of the same type so you can have a good sample size of number of hits. Have them wack at you with ShO+Ramps up, then Sentinel with no ShO and see how you take less damage in the latter (40% vs 38%). I mean if they stacked additively, wouldn't Shield Oath + Rampart + Sentinel + Block be 110% damage reduction? That's stronger than Hallowed Ground!! Boss hits should heal you for 10% of their damage... What happens is you actually take closer to 26.88% of the damage (73.22% total damage reduction)

DRG would probably be a better example since you don't have to wait for AF3 to time out after each Fire 1 cast. DRG gets 10% from Heavy Thrust. Using B4B on top of HT adds 15% to your already 110% output, try it by simply spamming a non-combo'd Full Thrust (100 potency), remove critical hits then averaging them up. Try it bare, then with only HT up, then only B4B up, then both. Bigger sample size is better, go ahead and test it yourself (B4B numbers will take a while since you have to wait and you can only have so many GCDs in 20s).

Buffs and debuffs DEFINITELY have a multiplicative stacking nature. (i.e. Your damage with Storm's Eye is amplified by Slashing debuff, HT applies first, then B4B/D.Sight, then Disembowel).

In general, potency comparisons aren't always accurate (I will say never accurate). They are always done lazily and they ignore a lot of (important) factors. Multiplicative vs additive buff stacking done wrong in this thread is a clear example. They also simplify their own math, so they ignore important traits. BLM scales with SpS more than the other casters because 100% of its DMG is GCDs, whereas SMN and RDm hate SpS because a big portion of their damage is oGCDs (and a melee combo in case of RDM) which are completely unaffected by it. Meanwhile, BLU's EVERYTHING is buffed by SpS, including its oGCDs that get their cast time and cooldown reduced by it. Removing RNG does not help either. Damage/healing formula has a 10% variance between low and high, ignoring crit (a stat that double dips into itself because it increases chance and power) is also bad. I know people want to only consider/care about averages, and again, not all classes benefit from the same stat the same way.

Based on the above, the calculations in this thread have done the following incorrectly:

Scaling of UI/AF3 for BLM spells (done incorrectly or ignored). Ignoring TC and FS procs which are a HUGE portion of the lv50 DPS ratio.
Not using Garuda-Egi (the superior pet in 4.4) for SMN and taking the DoT snap shotting during contagion (also unloading festers into contgion) into account.
Assuming ver-shortspells to be 100% instead of 50% (basically the calculations should assume 50% Jolts get replaced by 25% of w/b Ver-shorts). RDM might get 1 or 2 melee combos in a minute. Calculating highest DPS potential should assume Displacement and Corpse-a-corpse being used on CD, not matched with melee combos.
All scaling on BLU unless it was done completely multiplicatively.

If you want a definitive answer to which DPS does more damage (which is pointless as none of the jobs are balanced around level 50 anymore, RDM and SAM outDPS BLM at 50, even though an optimized BLM is 10~15% ahead of an optimized SAM and RDM is in the bottom of the DPS ladder at 70) is simply by being level 50 (no level sync) and wearing the best gear for the job at level 50 and going all out on a training dummy then using certain 3rd party programs which aren't advocated here and see which DPS parses highest.

This whole topic is moot as BLU cannot be 70 and all the other DPS are balanced around level 70 abilities and content.

The only objective way to look at BLU is, in a 3:00 minute parse:
Without Primal Abilities at 130, you won't break 300 DPS.
With primal abilities, you should average ~550 DPS.
Both of the above cases abuse the ability to apply status to enemies (petrify, freeze, etc) until immunity.

[TsundereImouto]

Check out my thing I did on BLU theorycrafting!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...v9hVUg3DU/edit

BLU is actually pretty strong. I did synched Nael Van Darnus on BLU and was just under the BLM (who benefitted heavily from my Peculiar Light) in our group.

[Laphael]

I think Blu should have been stronger than it is now. Its not weak, but it should be a bit more overpowered compared to other dps at lvl 50.
It should do dps numbers like a lvl 50 dps while in tankstance, then you could much better farm those primal spells with 8x blu.

[Jonnycbad]

BLU was balanced solely on its solo performance in the open world ARR 2.0 zones, and Masked Carnival. No other balance considerations were made for party play other than making certain bosses immune to instant death.

[Kabooa]

That's kind of the problem. Over the duration of a fight, Blue Mage dips even with condition susceptible enemies. The difference between combo use and glower spam is probably like 5% over a duration. I have gotten similar results as Phoenicia with just glower spam set ups.

But you can't use those rotations against most bosses, and the ones you can cheese with missile, death, and tailscrew are also kind of limited. Basically all the bosses that matter.

Blue Mage could have been its own self contained party of Blue Mages where "Tank" mage sets up the burst opportunities for the DPS mages, but that doesn't really happen. If you can't missile cheese the boss, then you're just spamming glower until it's in self destruct range.

If you're having fun, awesome. I had fun with it too, while it lasted. I sincerely hope you continue to have fun with it. I don't think many of us on this side of the fence would think otherwise, we just wish it stayed fun for us too.