Regarding the Revision of the Prohibited Activities and Account Penalty Policy

[Maeka]

I agree with you here, but not for the reasons you would think. SE has chosen to intervene because we as a community, failed. They wouldn't have to do things like this if everyone was respectable and courteous to one another, and obeyed the freakin rules. But no. We've forced their hands and there's going to be increased policing as a result. Everyone needs to look in a mirror instead of pointing fingers at SE. It's not their fault. It's ours.

Nobody forced their hands, they already had the most tame and the least toxic playerbase in nearly any mainstream online game I've heard of.

[CatfishCassie]

I agree with most of the policy, but the "Offensive Expressions" portion is troubling to me. No one has a right to be heard, understood, or considered by another... in fact, there are often cultural or other barriers preventing that understanding. So the idea that administrative action can be taken because I "unilaterally reject another person's opinion" is something that I think needs to be reconsidered. If I have an opinion that I have considerably researched and found supportable, and someone else has a contradictory opinion with no factual evidence to back up their contradiction, their opinion deserves to be rejected... I'm not likely to accept it until they can submit some form of evidence to demonstrate why I should change my mind. And while that may not count as "unilaterally rejecting" someone's opinion, the guidelines are vague enough that I can see that being the case.

I also disagree with the portion about "Expressions that significantly lack consideration for another". While I do try to be considerate toward others, I'm not always as tactful as I want to be. Moreover, sometimes my attempt at being considerate toward another person is missed (or sometimes willfully ignored) by someone else who is looking to be hurt and offended. I'm certainly not innocent in this... there are times where I'm mad at someone and want to continue being mad at them as some sort of misguided way of punishing them for something I should've already forgiven them over. Part of the problem, also, is that there is no such thing as universally offensive behavior, no matter how much we might wish there to be. Murder is something that's offensive to most people, yet obviously not to some murderers. Cannibalism is something we'd think would be universally offensive, yet some cultures venerate it with religious respect. If those things can be offensive to some, but not to others, I think we can agree that there is no objective standard of offense.

Offense is something taken, not given, and I cannot control nor predict what another person finds offensive. All I can do is react to things that I personally find offensive with as forgiving a heart as possible until it becomes clear that offending me is the point of the behavior. I give people the benefit of the doubt, because chances are they're not trying to be offensive. If they persist... if they refuse to apologize or at least amend and bring the conversation into perhaps a less-offensive manner of addressing the same subject... then I'm going to start to assume that offense, rather than debate, is the goal and act accordingly. That said... free speech isn't about protecting speech you agree with or find fine. If it was, you wouldn't need it. Free speech is about protecting what you find offensive... even hateful. There's a difference between offensive speech and harassment... offensive speech can simply be stating facts or opinions you disagree with, or using wording that you find distasteful, but it gives you the chance to respond and say "Maybe don't use that word...". Harassment is when it continues afterward, after you've made your objections known. But even then, there's a thin line there... perhaps the person is just trying to explain themselves, and explain why they're using that word. Maybe they're not trying to offend, but rather using a word for hyperbolic effect, as happens with many words which we find offensive.

The point is... we can't just police everyone's speech because we find some speech distasteful. The main reason we can't do so is because there's no objective standard by which we can judge that speech. We can, however, police harassing behavior... people continuing to be offensive, for the purpose of being offensive, after they've been asked not to. A good guideline, and a needed change, would be to revert to such a standard... one that does not punish people for using the wrong words but, rather, punishes people for intentionally seeking to offend others.

[CatfishCassie]

Also... I like how there are all kinds of rules that can get you banned from the game for saying the wrong thing, but I still can't ban someone from my house, or from the FC mansion, to keep them from harassing my players until a GM arrives...

[Baalfrog]

Hey, I am so relieved and happy that stalking is finally a bannable offense.

Several guys on here have stalked me in game, and tried to find out real life information about me. This has always needed better understanding. I am also happy to see that homophobia against gender orientation, and that discrimination against gender identities is also clearly stated. Often a company will just label LGBT+ as other, or put us dead last on the list of priorities. It feels like they only do it because they have to.

My main issue however is everything else is pretty vague, and I feel like it could be abused by users. How do you determine what is morally correct in a game that is filled with people from all over the world? Sure you have separate datacenters, but that hasn't stopped people from joining over seas on my server.

Please be more clear on what is and isn't allowed on XIV.

Those have always been bannable, and even criminal in most countries. They just fell under the broader "harassment" thing, it just wasn't specified.

[Nyvara]

Some of it is valid worry from folks who like to interact and come across the usual "DF d*s" (see the Tales thread story HyoMin referred to). Some of it is out-of-proportion self-victimizing from folks who already know that they're offensive and are worried they might actually be called to task for it.

This is the exact thing I was thinking.

[CatfishCassie]

Nope. But they can report you for infringing on gameplay, because the advice you're giving is unsolicited. If you want to coach the knowledge you've obtained, I suggest joining a program that allows you to do so instead of imposing your playstyle onto others in a dungeon. If that ice mage bothers you so much, then abandon the duty and form a premade party. DF isn't for your convenience. It's for everyone. Either bite or bail.


Yes. You are in contempt because you are using a third party tool that allows you to see such numbers, which is and always has been against the ToS. Of course it's bannable, and should be. I honestly don't know how may players getting pissed off at you it takes for it to stick that your opinion on someone else's gameplay isn't needed, wanted, or asked for. DF is not the place to critique someone else's gameplay. "Learn to play your job" is typically a retaliatory response to rejected criticism, and you can best believe that is offensive.


I agree with you here, but not for the reasons you would think. SE has chosen to intervene because we as a community, failed. They wouldn't have to do things like this if everyone was respectable and courteous to one another, and obeyed the freakin rules. But no. We've forced their hands and there's going to be increased policing as a result. Everyone needs to look in a mirror instead of pointing fingers at SE. It's not their fault. It's ours.

I'm a casual player, and I hate someone critiquing my choice of gameplay modes as much as the next person... but never once did I think that someone should get banned, and be unable to enjoy a game that they're paying for, because they had unwanted opinions on my playstyle. Certainly I'd think they were rude, and at times it might even ruin my night. But I don't think getting them banned would actually have a positive outcome in terms of convincing them to amend their behavior... if anything, it will make them feel wronged and make them more likely to double down on their rude behavior.

Certainly, if you're on the other side of the coin, you can do a better job then telling someone to play better. Helpful tips (like "If you're a monk, use Riddle of Earth at the last second to extend your Greased Lightning through these long 'run away from the boss' sections... that way you can keep up your damage output") are a better choice than "lol, learn your job, noob". If you find someone's playstyle distasteful enough to complain about it, maybe try teaching them something that will make them better rather than belittling them. That's really the point of the policy. And while I agree with that point from a philosophical standpoint, I don't agree with it when it has the threat of the banhammer sitting behind it.

[Nedkel]

Good thing that we are no longer allowed to chat, because that will make us banned for anything.

Nice way to encourage the teamwork in the game, really excellent.
I will not use chat at all from now on and instead kick players from the duties if they perform badly, i dont bother.

[Shuuchi]

I once grouped with a ninja who didn't memorize his mudras. The instance took an hour to complete.

Woulda taken 2 hours if I didn't speak up about it.

[Baalfrog]

I'm a casual player, and I hate someone critiquing my choice of gameplay modes as much as the next person... but never once did I think that someone should get banned, and be unable to enjoy a game that they're paying for, because they had unwanted opinions on my playstyle. Certainly I'd think they were rude, and at times it might even ruin my night. But I don't think getting them banned would actually have a positive outcome in terms of convincing them to amend their behavior... if anything, it will make them feel wronged and make them more likely to double down on their rude behavior.

Certainly, if you're on the other side of the coin, you can do a better job then telling someone to play better. Helpful tips (like "If you're a monk, use Riddle of Earth at the last second to extend your Greased Lightning through these long 'run away from the boss' sections... that way you can keep up your damage output") are a better choice than "lol, learn your job, noob". If you find someone's playstyle distasteful enough to complain about it, maybe try teaching them something that will make them better rather than belittling them. That's really the point of the policy. And while I agree with that point from a philosophical standpoint, I don't agree with it when it has the threat of the banhammer sitting behind it.

While thats right and proper in principle, I keep getting all these red flags that it can be abused, both ways even. Playing the victim on the part of the player who got critiqued and then filing reports in hopes of banning or warning the one who gave the critique (wheter it was constructive or not, doesn't matter) since you are pushing "playstyle" on others. Then on the other hand, the player giving the critique could see that the player playing sub optimally (wheter it is just some inconsistencies or just flat out Timmy the icemage again doesn't matter) since you could blame the other player from obstructing the gameplay and trolling and whatnot.

Now, instead of people talking about it, and things changing (or not) people are just kinda incentivized to just report, cause the rules are vague enough that you can just say, it really really hurt my feelings or something, and use that to solve your problems instead.

[Rivers23]

Nope. But they can report you for infringing on gameplay, because the advice you're giving is unsolicited. If you want to coach the knowledge you've obtained, I suggest joining a program that allows you to do so instead of imposing your playstyle onto others in a dungeon. If that ice mage bothers you so much, then abandon the duty and form a premade party. DF isn't for your convenience. It's for everyone. Either bite or bail.

I'm not giving advice, I'm pointing out a fact - you don't know how to play your job. I'm not out to coach either. If DF isn't for my convenience, it isn't for theirs either. Why do I have to sit in a dungeon for 40 minutes or bite a 30min penalty because someone is too lazy to read tooltips? And forming a PF is far from being immune from those type of players joining. And I constantly fail to see why do these players have the right to be entitled so much that no one can even point out objective facts about their gameplay. Would you be offended if your hair was covered in mud and I told you 'go wash your hair, it's dirty' because it's an unwanted opinion?
Why don't you tell those players to go through 'appropriate program's to actually learn to play before joining the DF parties?

Yes. You are in contempt because you are using a third party tool that allows you to see such numbers, which is and always has been against the ToS. Of course it's bannable, and should be. I honestly don't know how may players getting pissed off at you it takes for it to stick that your opinion on someone else's gameplay isn't needed, wanted, or asked for. DF is not the place to critique someone else's gameplay. "Learn to play your job" is typically a retaliatory response to rejected criticism, and you can best believe that is offensive.

I don't even need a third party tool to tell me people are bad because Suzaku dies to enrage at 20% health in a farm party. I see what people are doing and what skills they're using anyway. And telling them they should get better is only offensive to people who consider this game to be their personal safe space and who think they have the right to waste other people's time due to their own laziness. And it would be a dangerous precedent to consider 'all opinion that is unwanted' as offensive and punishable, that's just a sick environment. If you want to learn, join learning parties, don't join farm and clear parties when you don't have the skill or knowledge of mechanics to clear it. And anyone telling me that when I have no right to call out those people is just tragicomically ridiculous.