Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Taim_Meich]

Well... it's still more powerful as a GCD than Riposte and more cost-effective than any individual melee skill. It may still be our go-to for dumping excess Mana.

80 potency's a hefty hit though, and with it being weaker than the Verquicks you'd be using it for... oof.

The thing is, you don't evaluate the melee combo skills in isolation. You evaluate the entire combo, and with that into account, enchanted riposte is less potency per GCD and less potency per mana. And at 300, it still was, but it was compensated with the added flexibility in adjusting excess mana to fit the melee combo in buff windows or in situations where we couldn't go into melee range for a while. Now, overcapping mana will be more efficient than using Enchanted Riposte to dump some.

So we end up having VerScathe.

[Archwizard]

The thing is, you don't evaluate the melee combo skills in isolation. You evaluate the entire combo,

... Except that this evaluation simply assumes that the use of Reprise comes at the cost of a melee combo.

The value of any skill in the melee combo tree relies entirely on the time and cost of executing the skills that precede it. The value of a Verfinisher isn't split up amongst the melee skills; its value is exactly 0 if you don't spend 80/80 Mana and at least 3 melee GCDs setting it up.

One Riposte contains the cost of three Reprises, and the value of less than one. Riposte and Zwerchau contains five Reprises, and the value of less than three. You don't evaluate Reprise against the full melee combo (and consequent Verfinishers) until you actually get to the point where you are giving up the full melee combo, and at the point where you're casting up to Zwerchau (55/55) "just to dump Mana" you weren't in a situation where Reprise was applicable anyway, because that situation doesn't exist -- by that point you'd continue building up to Redoublement before comboing. Likewise, there's virtually no situation of Reprise-dumping where you'd use it more than twice anyway without already having taken a loss.

If I just want to dump 10/10 Mana before I Manafication or spend a Verquick proc, Reprise is there.

[Turing]

If I just want to dump 10/10 Mana before I Manafication or spend a Verquick proc, Reprise is there.

Problem is, in all but the most edge of cases, using a Reprise for this purpose will waste more potency than it will gain. Riposte is stronger than Reprise by virtue of its recast, and Reprise is weaker than your GCDs on account of its potency.

[Zyneste]

Problem is, in all but the most edge of cases, using a Reprise for this purpose will waste more potency than it will gain. Riposte is stronger than Reprise by virtue of its recast, and Reprise is weaker than your GCDs on account of its potency.

It seems to me that it goes like this. Wanna delay your Melee combo?

5 seconds: Overcap your Mana. Do Not Reprise.
10 seconds: Moulinet
15 seconds: Riposte

Its silly that a skill that is basically a mana dump, can't function as a positive mana dump, and is instead a mobility tool to only be used after Displace/Corps/Dualcast/Swiftcast has been exhausted.

If I just want to dump 10/10 Mana before I Manafication or spend a Verquick proc, Reprise is there.

When looking at opportunity cost for DPS, you look at what the classes filler spell is. In the case of RDM the filler spell is the combination of Jolt II into VA/VT or VS/VF into VA/VT.

So the average PPS for JII -> VA/VT is: (250 + 310) / 5 = 112.

and the average PPS for JII -> VA/VT is: (270 + 310) / 5 = 116.

Note that these casts do not even include how much the B/W mana are worth.

The PPS of Reprise is: 220/2.2 = 100.

Reprise has less potency than even your filler spell, which means it is in all cases a DPS loss, except when you need ABSOLUTE mobility, beyond the tools described. This will also be exagerated by the the lower natural recast from any SpS, since all weapon skills are not affected. An extreme example as well is that Reprise does the same PPS as Spamming Jolt II if not less from SpS and even less when you consider B/W mana gain. Its that low. Jolt II spam is a better option. [250/2.5 = 100PPS]

This does not even count the 45-80+ potency from the B/W mana. At 300 potency it was in much better shape. A loss still, but not like this.

Using it to dump your gauge before Manafiction to guarantee a proc, by preventing overcap from 50 50 won't be worth it. Youll lose 20 DPS + 3 B/W mana potency (about 40 at max) compared to the 70-110 potency loss from reprise [12*2.2 + 45-80 B/W man].

[Archwizard]

Its silly that a skill that is basically a mana dump, can't function as a positive mana dump, and is instead a mobility tool to only be used after Displace/Corps/Dualcast/Swiftcast has been exhausted.

Alright, since I have been presented with numbers I will concede the point.

Out of curiosity though, what's our breakpoint here? At what minimum potency would it be a positive gain to spend 10/10 Mana instead of overcapping?

[Zyneste]

Alright, since I have been presented with numbers I will concede the point.

Out of curiosity though, what's our breakpoint here? At what minimum potency would it be a positive gain to spend 10/10 Mana instead of overcapping?

I would say that would be [JII -> VA/T] + the value of 1 B/W mana. Not adjusting for SPS. [[560/5] * 2.2] + 7~9 = 246 + 7~9 = 252-254 is the minimum. Brain is getting foggy though. Need to nap before SHB.

[Rongway]

Alright, since I have been presented with numbers I will concede the point.

Out of curiosity though, what's our breakpoint here? At what minimum potency would it be a positive gain to spend 10/10 Mana instead of overcapping?

It would need to be at least 257, the average potency of spellcasting. (250+320)/2 and then adjusted for a 2.2s GCD down from 2.44. (The 320 accounts for Verslowspell’s 50% to increase next Jolt by 20). note this is specifically in regards to using it as a mana dump at 60|60 when Manafication is about to come off cool down. Its potency would need to be significantly higher to warrant using it as an independent attack for movement purposes.

[Archwizard]

I would say that would be [JII -> VA/T] + the value of 1 B/W mana. Not adjusting for SPS. [[560/5] * 2.2] + 7~9 = 246 + 7~9 = 252-254 is the minimum. Brain is getting foggy though. Need to nap before SHB.

It would need to be at least 257, the average potency of spellcasting. (250+320)/2 and then adjusted for a 2.2s GCD down from 2.44. (The 320 accounts for Verslowspell’s 50% to increase next Jolt by 20). note this is specifically in regards to using it as a mana dump at 60|60 when Manafication is about to come off cool down. It’s potency would need to be significantly higher to warrant using it as an independent attack for movement purposes.

And since SE loves their round numbers ending in 0... at least 260p.

Well, here's hoping it gets buffed before any part of the melee combo does...