Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Nalien]

I'd like 1 DoT like Higanbana to manage, that plays with the Mana gauge in a different manner than what we currently see. The whole unbalanced Mana aspect of Red Mage is sorely under played IMO, it's essentially the same as Ninjas Rabbit Medium when it could be used in a somewhat interesting manner. For the melee combo burst I think it has to be balance based, but for a single skill that you use solely to apply a DoT? That gives you room to play around with.

Lets say the default effect is nothing, much like Reprise.
The Enhanced version from a balanced gauge (10/10 Mana cost perhaps) is a medium-potency DoT.
For the full potency DoT though, you want to push to unbalance your Mana gauge, and then you get either a White or Black version of the DoT (obviously none of these versions stack with each other). So for maximum potency, you actually want to push too many Veraeros, for example, and then the cost of the White version of the skill would bring your White Mana back down to rebalance you.

Playing around with the Mana gauge like that seems like the logical next step to take Red Mage IMO. Doesn't even have to be a DoT, could be any number of skills. If anything, a DoT is the boring option since both White and Black versions would essentially be the same. You could instead have a skill that does one effect while White, and another while Black. Certainly a much more interesting means to tie two skills cooldowns together than what we see with Displacement and Engagement. I imagine the entire mechanism for such a skill are already in game, they're just not being used because the current mindset is that going too far White or Black should be a punishment, and that seems wasteful to me... Make it a punishment most of the time, sure, but you could easily have one or two skills where that's the aim, and it adds a whole new dynamic to the Jobs gauge with zero rework involved...

Heck, lets just fill in the missing elements with this; Something along the lines of Scatter/Jolt/Impact/Scorch for the balanced weak version of the DoT. Turns into Verblizzard (inflicts Verfreeze DoT) when too much Black Mana, or Verwater (inflicts Verdrown DoT) when too much White Mana. Any reason a spell can't cost from the Mana gauge as well? I'd prefer more sword skills, but it would be nice to round off the elements.

[Archwizard]

The whole unbalanced Mana aspect of Red Mage is sorely under played IMO

That's... the point though? Unbalancing your Mana is supposed to be penalized, so that you're compelled to use spells on both sides.

The reason Verholy and Verflare have a bonus for the lower Mana type (of an effective 3 Mana and 20 potency on your next cast, wow) is to add incentive to rebalance your Mana, by feeding the deficient side with a massive amount at once -- because in the reverse scenario you run the risk of unbalancing your Mana severely and penalizing the opposing Mana gain.

Besides, why do we need multiple mechanics to satisfy the "if Mana is unbalanced" niche?

Lets say the default effect is nothing, much like Reprise.
The Enhanced version from a balanced gauge (10/10 Mana cost perhaps) is a medium-potency DoT.

My problem with this is, Reprise (and to an extent, it would seem, the intent of Moulinet) is a skill we will use to prevent from overcapping Mana, and the primary manner in which we dump Mana is intended to be the Enchanted Combo.

The overall goal of our rotation is to reach the Enchanted Combo as quickly as possible, which means reaching 80/81 Mana as quickly as possible. If one of the skills in our rotation leading up to the melee combo required us to spend an extra 10/10 Mana every, say, 21 sec, not only would it slow down reaching the combo by four or more GCDs (assuming the going ideal rate of about 40 sec to the combo, where VF/VS proc every cast), but as a result of sharing a resource with the Enchanted Combo, we would have to weigh its value against what it takes away from the combo itself.

It's a lot of complicated math that goes against the at-a-glance nature of XIV's rotations.

Going forward we should be focusing on accelerating into the combo, not making the trip take longer.

Heck, lets just fill in the missing elements with this; Something along the lines of Scatter/Jolt/Impact/Scorch for the balanced weak version of the DoT. Turns into Verblizzard (inflicts Verfreeze DoT) when too much Black Mana, or Verwater (inflicts Verdrown DoT) when too much White Mana.

One, if we're going Verdrown vs an ice DoT, Verfrost is more appropriate.

More importantly, you want us to go from no DoTs, to managing as many as Summoner? Because that's the only point I can see to separating them.

... You're aware that the optimal use of a DoT is "keep it up at all times, refreshing just as it falls off", right?

Any reason a spell can't cost from the Mana gauge as well?

Lore reasons. Our rapiers are "Aetheric Accelerators" and the Balance Gauge determines how much we've charged our blades with magic as a result of casting through them. Kinda like fueling the Enchanted skill with the residual aftereffects of the spells you focus through the weapon, basically.

[Nalien]

More importantly, you want us to go from no DoTs, to managing as many as Summoner? Because that's the only point I can see to separating them.

Fairly certain I'm only suggesting one DoT...

I'd like 1 DoT like Higanbana to manage...

(obviously none of these versions stack with each other)

And even then, I said a DoT was perhaps the more boring effect to apply to such a mechanism...

That's... the point though? Unbalancing your Mana is supposed to be penalized, so that you're compelled to use spells on both sides.

And like I said, I see that as a waste. It's potentially an interesting mechanic to explore, and not entirely without precedent; Machinists Heat gauge, for example. Overheating is a punishment, except when it's not because you want to overheat for a burst window. Red Mage could function much the same way; Unbalancing Mana is a punishment, except when you want to for specific skills cooldowns.

Going forward we should be focusing on accelerating into the combo, not making the trip take longer.

I completely disagree with this, simply because that completely limits the potential of the Job moving forward. We already build gauge at a perfectly reasonable rate, and think the Job should focus on doing more with its gauge going forward, not focusing on more ways to build it. Lv80 is already fairly meh because the selection of skills we're getting are niche fillers, I'd rather Lv90 blow me away with something new than effectively more of the same...

[Archwizard]

Fairly certain I'm only suggesting one DoT...

You suggested a water DoT and an ice DoT dependent on which Mana type it spends.
Elemental damage is purely cosmetic, being treated by the game as general "magic" damage outside of BLU content. The only reason to have an ice DoT and water DoT is if both are treated as separate mechanical entities.

So either you're suggesting one effect overwrites the other to make one "effective" DoT, in which case the separation doesn't matter at all because together they would behave as one DoT and you've provided zero reason to alternate anyway, or it's two different DoT effects to manage even if only one is active.

It's potentially an interesting mechanic to explore, and not entirely without precedent; Machinists Heat gauge, for example.

So play a Machinist then?

I completely disagree with this, simply because that completely limits the potential of the Job moving forward

You say "limits", I hear "provides direction for". That's like complaining WHM is "limited" from getting Meteor when that's literally not the direction we've seen with the job.

[Nalien]

You suggested a water DoT and an ice DoT dependent on which Mana type it spends.
Elemental damage is purely cosmetic, being treated by the game as general "magic" damage outside of BLU content. The only reason to have an ice DoT and water DoT is if both are treated as separate mechanical entities.

So either you're suggesting one effect overwrites the other to make one "effective" DoT, in which case the separation doesn't matter at all because together they would behave as one DoT and you've provided zero reason to alternate anyway, or it's two different DoT effects to manage even if only one is active.

The separation is purely for the sake of Red Mages Mana gauge... Like literally half of Red Mages kit... What's the real difference between Veraero and Verthunder, for example... What's the difference between Verholy and Verflare? The difference is which you use based on how your Mana gauge is currently looking... I think what I've suggested for the DoTs is fairly fitting with that theme... The one you use is based on how your gauge is looking... Like literally half of Red Mages kit...

Regardless, as I quoted myself, I explicitly stated they wouldn't stack, so this seems like a fairly redundant point to jump on... I said they wouldn't stack, so why you're reading into it like they would is beyond me... I guess I should expect people to nitpick points I explicitly ruled out, going forward?

You say "limits", I hear "provides direction for". That's like complaining WHM is "limited" from getting Meteor when that's literally not the direction we've seen with the job.

Meteor doesn't fit White Mage because of the "theme" of the Job. Red Mages "theme" is very much its gauge usage. Limiting it to simply being about building 80/80 and then doing the melee combo is... Well... Limiting... There are plenty of other things they could use that gauge on, and it's a waste not IMHO.

Not to mention, if you purely focus on speeding up our gauge building... Aren't you going to hit a point of absurdity? You can only speed that up so much, and typically speeding anything up comes with adding more to it... Dragoon requires less build up, for example, but it has something new on the end. Same deal with Summoner. They're sped up, but that's because they're using it on more things too... An extra step at the end of the combo chain isn't the only way to add more to do with a gauge, though.

So play a Machinist then?

Ah the aged old argument of the FFXIV Official Forums... Go play X then...

I'll settle for playing the Job I enjoy, thank you very much. If you think that means I can't wish SE would add some new level of complexity to it, well there's not much point continuing this if so...

[Archwizard]

The separation is purely for the sake of Red Mages Mana gauge... Like literally half of Red Mages kit... What's the real difference between Veraero and Verthunder, for example... What's the difference between Verholy and Verflare? The difference is which you use based on how your Mana gauge is currently looking... I think what I've suggested for the DoTs is fairly fitting with that theme... The one you use is based on how your gauge is looking... Like literally half of Red Mages kit...

The difference is that those skills you mention have different effects, building specific resources and rewarding you for alternating them as a result of the Balance Gauge's overall design.
The skills you propose have the same effect as each other (a singular DoT which doesn't stack or provide any bonus for alternating, effectively just costing X mana of your current highest type), differing only by damage type (which by the game's coding is exactly the same anyway), but cost different resources purely for the sake of expending those resources. As you've said, what you're proposing doesn't even need to be in DoT form, you're just piggybacking off the opening.

If you were suggesting perhaps having each DoT grow in power when you cast it while the other DoT is active so that the two have a functional difference, maybe. But I still don't think it's necessary to have such an effect consume gauge, in no small part because putting an extra resource cost on its maintenance would make it more painful than most; you can't even use it in the opener.

There are plenty of other things they could use that gauge on, and it's a waste not IMHO.

Sure, and there are plenty of ways you could argue for BLM to expend charges of Polyglot too, but the problem is you have to weigh those values against its existing means while still giving each equal opportunity for use.

What you're suggesting is just spending gauge so we have to spend gauge as part of our rotation, which already is a role we have covered multiple times within the kit.
Damage aside, what mechanical purpose does your Enchanted DoT serve that we can't get out of Reprise (overcap prevention) or our Verfinishers (correcting imbalance)?

Not to mention, if you purely focus on speeding up our gauge building... Aren't you going to hit a point of absurdity? You can only speed that up so much, and typically speeding anything up comes with adding more to it...

If we eventually speed up to "a point of absurdity", then I'll have no problem with giving us more skills to spend and slow down the Balance Gauge.

We are not at that point. Hell, we're hardly any closer to that point in Shadowbringers than we were in Stormblood.

I'll settle for playing the Job I enjoy, thank you very much.

Yet you suggest adding a mechanic that you're basing on a job you supposedly don't enjoy.

[Shurrikhan]

And like I said, I see that as a waste. It's potentially an interesting mechanic to explore, and not entirely without precedent; Machinists Heat gauge, for example. Overheating is a punishment, except when it's not because you want to overheat for a burst window. Red Mage could function much the same way; Unbalancing Mana is a punishment, except when you want to for specific skills cooldowns.

I still miss the imbalanced MP cost reduction bug... That was a surprisingly neat incidental 'mechanic'.

I completely disagree with this, simply because that completely limits the potential of the Job moving forward.

I don't see how it would. A less costly melee combo allows for greater banking which in turn allows greater flexibility. Having more ways to build it, or taking less time to build up to a given combo, is not mutually exclusive with things to do with its gauge.

Simply put... Why not both?

[Nalien]

I don't see how it would. A less costly melee combo allows for greater banking which in turn allows greater flexibility. Having more ways to build it, or taking less time to build up to a given combo, is not mutually exclusive with things to do with its gauge.

Simply put... Why not both?

Oh I agree, my disagreement was more with the notion that the focus should be building towards the melee combo faster... That's... Never really the focus... Summoner builds its aether faster now, but would you say that's the focus of it at Lv80? I wouldn't, I'd say the focus is having access to Demi-Phoenix on top of Demi-Bahamut. Same for Dragoon, was the focus needing one less Eye of the Dragon (or whatever that eye mechanic was called)? Nope, it was on getting yet more Nidhogg (EX) skills.

Absolutely we should get more skills to assist in building gauge moving forward (fairly sure I've even suggested a few in this thread before), but they shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be on the new things we can do with that. For 5.0 that's sadly just Scorch (which actually also helps building gauge), for 6.0 I'd hope for something with a bit more bite.

I still miss the imbalanced MP cost reduction bug... That was a surprisingly neat incidental 'mechanic'.

Haha, honestly that was my inspiration for the idea. I remember at the time thinking it would be neat if there was an intentional mechanic that had us throw balance out the window. For the core of the Job? Absolutely balance should be the focus, but for a one-off skill, like a DoT? IDK, I think it'd be a neat mechanic to play about with.

[Archwizard]

Oh I agree, my disagreement was more with the notion that the focus should be building towards the melee combo faster... That's... Never really the focus... Summoner builds its aether faster now, but would you say that's the focus of it at Lv80? I wouldn't, I'd say the focus is having access to Demi-Phoenix on top of Demi-Bahamut.

The "focus" of SMN is reaching the Trances and Demi-summons as often as possible. They need to spend Aether to build their Trances, so faster Aether generation facilitates that.
The "focus" of RDM is reaching the melee combo as often as possible. Faster Mana generation or lower Mana costs facilitate that. Spending Mana in ways that compete with the melee combo... does not.

A more accurate comparison would be adding a mechanic to force SMN to hold its Aether as long as possible, or providing a rotational tool that spends Aetherflow but doesn't generate Aethertrail Attunement or Dreadwyrm Aether, thereby delaying Trances/Demi-summons.

Absolutely we should get more skills to assist in building gauge moving forward (fairly sure I've even suggested a few in this thread before), but they shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be on the new things we can do with that. For 5.0 that's sadly just Scorch (which actually also helps building gauge), for 6.0 I'd hope for something with a bit more bite.

I'm not against adding more ways to spend Mana, I'm against such new methods running counter to our primary mechanic. You want a skill the promotes being imbalanced, fine, just tell me how that realistically facilitates the end goals of our rotation, since as set-up, being too greatly imbalanced slows us down (as does spending extra GCDs to get that way) and we already have tools to benefit from small imbalances.

SMN got a new Demi-summon to pop after Demi-Bahamut, yes, but only after it had its Aether mechanics reworked so Bahamut comes out sooner. If we want to add a few more stories to this tower so it overshadows the heavens, we need to start by reinforcing the foundation so it doesn't topple over. Maybe add an elevator too. I think I lost this metaphor somewhere.
At the very least we need to build both ends to meet in the middle.