Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Kalise]

Not necessarily. You're thinking in the binary sense of comparison to a healer.

In past FFs, where Red Mages shined was in the areas they could do things other classes couldn't, becoming a subcategory of their own.

Consider this, for instance:

Vercure now heals all allies within 5y of the target. For every ally that receives healing (not overhealing), the potency of your next spell increases by 10%, stacking up to 5 times. Can consume Acceleration to automatically generate 5 stacks.

But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

[Archwizard]

But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

[Kalise]

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

But the fact remains that in an MMO with Holy Trinity balancing, a DPS will never want, nor need, to use a Healing skill for healing.

Since, again, unless content is designed around RDM being present, healers will be able to handle any and all situations presented to them as they will be balanced to do so.

Cutting into the DPS of a DPS class will always have more impact than cutting into the DPS of a Healing class, because the DPS class will inherently have higher DPS.

Not to mention the current fact where Healers have plenty of oGCD's that they can use as well as the number of shields that are relied upon (Which cannot overheal).

The general balancing of Holy Trinity system just makes it so that anyone who has a healing skill that isn't a healer, simply will not care to use said healing skill for actual healing. This is why RDM currently doesn't really care about Vercure and why PLD doesn't really care about Clemency.

It's a situation where Healers ALREADY have healing in such abundance, that they try to minimize GCD's spent on healing skills so they can push out a bit more of their meagre DPS. Then any time additional healing may be needed, well, that's when people use Tank LB to drastically reduce incoming damage and make healing easier.

As such, it will always come down to a DPS only ever wanting to use a healing skill for utility. Even then, people will just calculate what offers more DPS, the utility provided by the skill or another DPS skill. Since that will be the primary concern of ever DPS class and in lieu of Hybrid role balancing will be the primary concern for RDM.

Of course, there's always the option of making oGCD heals so that they don't compete with DPS GCD's, but then you create a situation where RDM can replace actual Healers due to having the higher DPS even if the other actual Healer has to spend a few more GCD's on healing to make up for a RDM's lower output than a 2nd Healer (Given that DPS deal approximately 2x the DPS than Healers)

[Mansion]

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

I think you need to understand that the only hybrid nature in FFXIV's red mage is the use of White and Black magic BUT it's still DPS. As Kalise said, the Trinity will never allow cross-role abilities to a significant level. Like Ninja has agro manipulation tools, yet it's not a tanking job nor will ever be.

If as you said you save resource for a healer to DPS, their DPS is still lower than what you sacrificed with a VerCure / VerMedica or else. Even if it would bring some DPS up for RDM in a way (generating Mana, or any buff), then you need to rework the whole 3 (potentially 4) healer balance: I don't see it happening for obvious practical reasons.

So let's keep VerCure for emergency/self-sustain, and let's focus on polishing RDM's DPS, utility and identity.

[Archwizard]

So let's keep VerCure for emergency/self-sustain, and let's focus on polishing RDM's DPS, utility and identity.

Very well!

Personally I'm not too too concerned about the state of RDM's single-target rotation, as we have plenty of tools to be reactive to and a four-ability combo to finish it is already pretty long in my opinion. The first priority should be increasing the speed at which we access our melee abilities, especially with all of these suggestions to load even more of our DPS into (or gate it behind) our Verfinishers. (Anybody got an average on how long it takes to reach a Verfinisher without Manafication? Because it feels like I only get 2-3 in before it comes back...)

It's a fairly low priority, I think, to give us more instant casts or mobility tools -- Dualcast and Swiftcast are kind of plenty in that regard, and BLM needs mobility tools way more than us.

The biggest game-changer I find, will be increasing our ability to regenerate MP on demand. I would much rather have Lucid Dreaming as an emergency tool than be forced to live cooldown-to-cooldown with it, especially with our melee combo being taken off TP next expansion. I've seen some suggestions to attach it to the melee combo, but I'm wary of this suggestion since that would mean needing enough MP to get to our melee combo before we can regenerate MP.
We don't need a lot of MP generation, just enough trickling in to kickstart our rotation if we get raised, or at least sustain it if we aren't spam-raising.

After that, personal survivability -- Vercure's useless if we can't survive the hit in the first place, and we have a rather perilous melee phase that can screw us over with bad luck or bad timing. There's honestly a spectacular variety of ways to execute this that could be perfectly within our identity: modify any protective spell from WHM or the shared Healer actions into a personal cooldown, or some variation of Manaward from BLM to contrast the two utilities we already have from WHM, perhaps some type of fencing-style defense or sword magic...

[Mansion]

The biggest game-changer I find, will be increasing our ability to regenerate MP on demand. I would much rather have Lucid Dreaming as an emergency tool than be forced to live cooldown-to-cooldown with it, especially with our melee combo being taken off TP next expansion. I've seen some suggestions to attach it to the melee combo, but I'm wary of this suggestion since that would mean needing enough MP to get to our melee combo before we can regenerate MP.
We don't need a lot of MP generation, just enough trickling in to kickstart our rotation if we get raised, or at least sustain it if we aren't spam-raising.

Fully with you on this one. RDM being the only caster without a MP regen in its kit / rotation, it leaves us with a dangerous Lucid Dreaming addiction :
Being KO'ed while Lucid is on cooldown,
High threat (because of Tank death or else) and Lucid is on cooldown
Using Lucid to help with raises, effectively patching for this mana loss, but not for your DPS rotation just after that.

I suggested that our un-enchanted melee combo should give us a nice chunk of mana back. I think it would be the easiest way, let's say one third of our mana pool in three actions (remember that they have a lower potency and don't trigger the 1.5 GCD).
So giving one or two full un-enchanted combo after a raise / death would be still a DPS loss, but it would make sure we can resume our DPS safely.

[Archwizard]

I suggested that our un-enchanted melee combo should give us a nice chunk of mana back. I think it would be the easiest way, let's say one third of our mana pool in three actions (remember that they have a lower potency and don't trigger the 1.5 GCD).
So giving one or two full un-enchanted combo after a raise / death would be still a DPS loss, but it would make sure we can resume our DPS safely.

I think my main concern with this is that while the option's there for us to use, it encourages bad practices for RDMs and doesn't give us that level of sustainability in our primary rotation.
Not to mention that a third of our mana pool per use means very fast recovery from Verraise, which I think defeats the purpose of making rez-spam so expensive for us. The pendulum would swing straight from "crippling addiction to LD" to "never needing to touch LD just like BLM", and giving up DPS for recovery means squat when the alternative is having zero resources to DPS.

It seems more balanced to me, and more fitting I think, for us to gain some type of boost to our natural MP regen, or a weak Refresh state we can keep up at all times. Enough so we recover MP faster than our main rotation spends it, but still require time to recover from Verraise spam.

Pretty quick test shows it takes us about ~13 seconds to recover 1200 MP while in combat at 70 (14400 max); we spend on average 840 MP every 4.5-ish seconds before SpS; napkin math says 4.5 sec is around 415 MP recovered, so under current conditions we just need to double our natural regen to make the rotation sustainable -- about 2% Refresh.
This is of course assuming our melee combo doesn't gain an MP cost in Shadowbringers, and without taking into account how SpS may increase our need. However, given that DoT and HoT effects are affected by SpS anyway, connecting future regen to that instead of base MP regeneration would take the anxiety away from that.

Hence my prior suggestion of Verfreeze.

[Mansion]

I think my main concern with this is that while the option's there for us to use, it encourages bad practices for RDMs

Well so does VerCure actually. Playing healer in most roulettes / raids, I see a lot of RDM using VerCure when they technically should not.
Now, reading your post does make it clear about the numbers, I did not give it too much thoughts. The idea is just that when you are out of mana with no recovery solutions, well your Melee combo is the only thing left, and it still has a decent DPS output (still more than VerCure ;D) as it scales on INT.
A small refresh additional effect on something, coupled with Lucid Dreaming would be okay


Seraphor, I think we don't agree. I belive almost everything is designed with an end-game mindset when it comes to job kits, with a few exceptions here and there for CC / solo content that do not come in calculation. AOE is basic for most jobs and I don't get the point of going extensively in that direction when it's only used in dungeons, when it's content that does not need any particular skill or effort.
Now if ShB makes dungeons actually challenging (and the overall game a bit harder), then I'm up for discussion on this topic. Right now, I don't see the point.

I think it's a waste of a Trait/Action slot to add an AOE finisher in the 70-80 levels. If it's an earlier level change, then it's fine (Tether could be reworked as Tri-Bind was for SMN and it did change its AOE rotation)