Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Archwizard]

Yeah but as far as we know, we'll use Scorch less often than we currently use (Jolt II and) Impact. That's a potency loss and a Mana gain loss (resulting in a DPS loss too). I'm not sure about the maths here, but even if our finisher now gives us 18-7 Mana (virtually making it faster to get into Melee), I think Impact is a better option (also in proc preparation when you go into melee)

Yes and no. Since we still have Jolt II and it retains the same effectiveness (potentially with +10 potency), we can subtract the value of all Jolt II's from any Impacts we may have lost -- making the effective value of each individual Impact a mere 20 potency and 1/1 Mana over the Jolt.

So if we measure the value of Scorch as a result of that -- its Mana gains being 7 "effective" Impacts -- it needs to outweigh the number of Impacts we would theoretically cast leading up to the melee combo, or else we call it a loss.
Bear in mind that in a proper rotation of alternating Impacts and Jolts with longcasts, assuming zero procs of Verstone/Verfire so as to maximize the number of Jolts you would use, we're talking about 27 GCDs (including 7 Jolt IIs and 13 longcasts) to reach 7 Impacts -- by which point you've generated 126/115 Mana, so we can safely say it does not require that many casts in order to reach the melee combo (which assuming worst case conditions requires only 20 GCDs, or 5 Impacts).
My math may be a little off since I'm doing it in my head. Feel free to double-check, but should be in the right ballpark.
And again, that's assuming zero procs pushing back Impacts -- if we factor in the average proc rates, we get me doing math at 4am and giving up to go to bed.

Point is, Scorch's net value is still a gain overall, just not as much as it looks like at face value.
(Also, doesn't our Verfinisher give 21 Mana and a proc? Which combined with Scorch to be 37/7 Mana? Or did I miss a Verfinisher nerf in the demo? I know he used it at 100/100 so it wouldn't have given a proc...)

[Archwizard]

Having finally confirmed the changes...

Three out of five advancements as traits devoted to raising potencies or lowering CDs?
Any of which could have been done baseline, as seen with Jolt II or LD?
One of which is devoted to two abilities we just received?

No adjustments to our survivability, despite SMN gaining an absorb to meet BLM, and our own presence in melee combat?
Removing all CC despite implying the increased value of CC in Shadowbringers, and extending Repose to all healers?
Making multiple adjustments to the BLM and SMN kits to address awkward recast timers or burst windows, but then making the only change to our Mana gain rate a small reduction to a CD that we'll probably keep lined up with Embolden?

Really.

[LeoLupinos]

Osmose: 60s CD Ability - Deals Unaspected Damage over Time with a potency of 50. Duration 21s. (Total 350 Potency).
Additional Effect: Gain 3 Black/White Mana over time. Duration: 15s. (Total 15 Black/White Mana)
Additional Effect: Restores 25% of Missing Mana.

Small amount of B/W Mana Generation that is slow enough not to conflict with setting up the melee combo. Single Target DoT. Desperately needed MP restoration to enable Raising and Mana Shifting.

Verwater - 4.5s Cast GCD - Deals water damage with a potency of 350. Cost: MP (same as Veraero), 11 Black Mana
Additional Effect: Generates 8 White Mana
- Only usable when Black Mana is above 40

Verblizzard - 4.5s Cast GCD - Deals ice damage with a potency of 350. Cost: MP (same as Veraero), 11 White Mana
Additional Effect: Generates 8 Black Mana
- Only usable when White Mana is above 40

Mana. Spenders. Numbers are rough but it's meant to be worth using to keep you in Manafication range. Added at the same time.


Trait: Improved Manafication - Manafication increases the damage of your next three Weaponskills by 30% and has its cooldown reduced to 90s.

Further facilitating waiting for Manafication. Not as clear whether the cooldown reduction is needed or not.

Chainspell: 180s Ability - Your next 6 spells have no cast time, have 1.5s recast times, and deal 30% less damage.

Minor DPS boost. Major Mana and Mobility boost, enables a super fast opener.



Enhanced Scatter: Trait - Scatter deals Unaspected Damage with a potency of 150 while under the effect of Enhanced Scatter.

This replaces Displacement at 40. Displacement replaces Tether at 15 (Tether is benched in the Role Action list pending an actual reason to bring it in Raids)

Enhanced Moulinet: Trait - Enchanted Moulinet now grants Enhanced Scatter.

More AoE Burst, sorta. It lets you sustain decent AoE longer at least.

I can't believe they only added Scorth between all those awesome suggestions. They were really fitting the kit.

[Mansion]

snap

Ooh yeah I see, thanks your explaining it better I did make a mistake on the finisher I typed based on VerThunder/Aero sorryz!
So I guess it's a potency equivalent/increase... but it's just "dumbed down" then.

Seeing the kit, yeah the AoE rotation is alright (Moulinet requiring 20 mana is welcome), although I won't say that doing 1-2/3-2 is more challenging than 1-1/1-1 in a 4 mobs+ situation. Now I see almost all jobs got AoE additions, I think it might mean something...
Contre de Sixte CD reduced does add up in the damage output. So with your breakdown, 5% on manafication and this, I guess we can say RDM pDPS is buffed... But I can bet it just does not compare with SMN or BLM (which changes are VERY god in my opinion).
Engagement is just for a handful of niche situations where you can't use displacement, there really was no need to add this. It should at least have an added effet for the lower potency.

Compared to all the jobs, I think RDM in 5.0 is just bad (WHM is worse though). Raising won't make it support, and it's pDPS won't give it a spot in the "high DPS caster" spot.

[Maero]

@Archwizard, is it really surprising though? A good portion of Stormblood Red Mage had been untouched with no changes while all other jobs received multiple and despite it being really weak they though it was fine as it was.
I think it will be fine for 5.0 but we shall see how far behind we are left i guess? I really hope the changes to impact/scatter is good, the aoe and Scorth.

Healers i think are in worst shape for SB which kind of rather sucks as they were supposed to have perfected them hence no new heals.

[Nalien]

Seeing the kit, yeah the AoE rotation is alright (Moulinet requiring 20 mana is welcome), although I won't say that doing 1-2/3-2 is more challenging than 1-1/1-1 in a 4 mobs+ situation.

My biggest problem with the new AoE rotation is that it is the ideal rotation even in a 2 mob situation. Veraero II/Verthunder II is a 10 potency loss on Jolt II (120*2 vs 250) but a 1 Mana gain. Impact? That's much stronger than Veraero/Verthunder (they're 310 potency? Impact is 220, so 440 on 2 mobs) and a 5 Mana loss. This actually takes away from Red Mages AoE rotation IMO, since I'd say it was more interesting to weave in the single target spells based on how many enemies remained. That required some level of attention, and also helped prep you before bosses, since you could start getting Verstone and Verfire Ready procs. Now it's just the AoE rotation until there is a single mob left...

To top it all off, you build Mana slower with the new AoE spells than we do with Scatter currently. The new spells build consistently, since there is no RNG, but a single Scatter proc and Scatter spam has you building Mana faster. The only reason this perhaps isn't a major issue is that Moulinet saw its cost reduced, but again... In 2 mob situations the AoE rotation is ideal, and 2~3 mob situations actually occur in real content every now and then, boss fights occasionally have a couple of extra mobs to deal with, and now we're stuck using our full AoE rotation on them for maximum damage, all while building Mana slower than we would with Scatter spam or weaving the single target spells in...

[Lauront]

Compared to all the jobs, I think RDM in 5.0 is just bad (WHM is worse though). Raising won't make it support, and it's pDPS won't give it a spot in the "high DPS caster" spot.

I'm not hugely pleased with the BLM stuff, either. It's QoL stuff that need not have taken up 70-80 slots, and I find the new spells dull and visually uninspired. So that's both RDM and BLM that I'm not particularly looking forward to. I'm going to give SMN a whirl, though, probably reserving BLM for when I want to switch things around a bit. Maybe even SAM, NIN and DRG, who knows. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Aside from the healers (I'll wait to see the new content to form an opinion on those), there's a few more jobs which appear to have suffered from a lack of any inspiration on SE's part, but aside from RDM, how many can boast an ability which is a downgrade (as opposed to moving damage away from Displacement) as a new ability?

[Nalien]

Aside from the healers (I'll wait to see the new content to form an opinion on those), there's a few more jobs which appear to have suffered from a lack of any inspiration on SE's part, but aside from RDM, how many can boast an ability which is a downgrade (as opposed to moving damage away from Displacement) as a new ability?

While not a direct downgrade, Astrologians Combust III is somewhat of a big question mark, though one assumes that's a result of the media build being incomplete. Displacement and Engagement seem set up that way specifically, based on what we've heard from Yoshida.

[Lauront]

It's certainly deliberate, but I don't think it's a particularly great decision, and it's something they could have more easily achieved by just taking damage out of Displacement altogether and moving it elsewhere. At least that way you don't end up with a trait buffing Displacement AND a new ability that is set up to be inferior to it, as an alternative. It seems to me they were in a rush to add the abilities, because I doubt they really lacked any better ideas than this.

As for the AST thing, no doubt an error.

[Archwizard]

@Archwizard, is it really surprising though? A good portion of Stormblood Red Mage had been untouched with no changes while all other jobs received multiple and despite it being really weak they though it was fine as it was.

Sure, but that's because A) the job was new so drastic changes had mostly been ironed out before the expansion was released and B) having us be weaker was an intentional balance to our ability to rapid-fire Verraises compared to BLM's dearth of utility.

"The job is new," however, should also mean taking the next expansion to consider filling in gaps in the kit that were revealed during its premiere.

My biggest problem with the new AoE rotation is that it is the ideal rotation even in a 2 mob situation.

Ignoring for a moment that the mana generation versus potency gain you were just explaining makes it not so clear cut, and that building Mana faster with E.Scatter was an offset to the since-reduced cost of Moulinet:

That's bad... how, exactly? As long as it's not "ideal" in single-target over single-target abilities, why does it matter if it starts to be a gain at the equally rare 2 target cleave instead of at 3?