Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Archwizard]

The whole unbalanced Mana aspect of Red Mage is sorely under played IMO

That's... the point though? Unbalancing your Mana is supposed to be penalized, so that you're compelled to use spells on both sides.

The reason Verholy and Verflare have a bonus for the lower Mana type (of an effective 3 Mana and 20 potency on your next cast, wow) is to add incentive to rebalance your Mana, by feeding the deficient side with a massive amount at once -- because in the reverse scenario you run the risk of unbalancing your Mana severely and penalizing the opposing Mana gain.

Besides, why do we need multiple mechanics to satisfy the "if Mana is unbalanced" niche?

Lets say the default effect is nothing, much like Reprise.
The Enhanced version from a balanced gauge (10/10 Mana cost perhaps) is a medium-potency DoT.

My problem with this is, Reprise (and to an extent, it would seem, the intent of Moulinet) is a skill we will use to prevent from overcapping Mana, and the primary manner in which we dump Mana is intended to be the Enchanted Combo.

The overall goal of our rotation is to reach the Enchanted Combo as quickly as possible, which means reaching 80/81 Mana as quickly as possible. If one of the skills in our rotation leading up to the melee combo required us to spend an extra 10/10 Mana every, say, 21 sec, not only would it slow down reaching the combo by four or more GCDs (assuming the going ideal rate of about 40 sec to the combo, where VF/VS proc every cast), but as a result of sharing a resource with the Enchanted Combo, we would have to weigh its value against what it takes away from the combo itself.

It's a lot of complicated math that goes against the at-a-glance nature of XIV's rotations.

Going forward we should be focusing on accelerating into the combo, not making the trip take longer.

Heck, lets just fill in the missing elements with this; Something along the lines of Scatter/Jolt/Impact/Scorch for the balanced weak version of the DoT. Turns into Verblizzard (inflicts Verfreeze DoT) when too much Black Mana, or Verwater (inflicts Verdrown DoT) when too much White Mana.

One, if we're going Verdrown vs an ice DoT, Verfrost is more appropriate.

More importantly, you want us to go from no DoTs, to managing as many as Summoner? Because that's the only point I can see to separating them.

... You're aware that the optimal use of a DoT is "keep it up at all times, refreshing just as it falls off", right?

Any reason a spell can't cost from the Mana gauge as well?

Lore reasons. Our rapiers are "Aetheric Accelerators" and the Balance Gauge determines how much we've charged our blades with magic as a result of casting through them. Kinda like fueling the Enchanted skill with the residual aftereffects of the spells you focus through the weapon, basically.

[Nalien]

More importantly, you want us to go from no DoTs, to managing as many as Summoner? Because that's the only point I can see to separating them.

Fairly certain I'm only suggesting one DoT...

I'd like 1 DoT like Higanbana to manage...

(obviously none of these versions stack with each other)

And even then, I said a DoT was perhaps the more boring effect to apply to such a mechanism...

That's... the point though? Unbalancing your Mana is supposed to be penalized, so that you're compelled to use spells on both sides.

And like I said, I see that as a waste. It's potentially an interesting mechanic to explore, and not entirely without precedent; Machinists Heat gauge, for example. Overheating is a punishment, except when it's not because you want to overheat for a burst window. Red Mage could function much the same way; Unbalancing Mana is a punishment, except when you want to for specific skills cooldowns.

Going forward we should be focusing on accelerating into the combo, not making the trip take longer.

I completely disagree with this, simply because that completely limits the potential of the Job moving forward. We already build gauge at a perfectly reasonable rate, and think the Job should focus on doing more with its gauge going forward, not focusing on more ways to build it. Lv80 is already fairly meh because the selection of skills we're getting are niche fillers, I'd rather Lv90 blow me away with something new than effectively more of the same...

[Archwizard]

Fairly certain I'm only suggesting one DoT...

You suggested a water DoT and an ice DoT dependent on which Mana type it spends.
Elemental damage is purely cosmetic, being treated by the game as general "magic" damage outside of BLU content. The only reason to have an ice DoT and water DoT is if both are treated as separate mechanical entities.

So either you're suggesting one effect overwrites the other to make one "effective" DoT, in which case the separation doesn't matter at all because together they would behave as one DoT and you've provided zero reason to alternate anyway, or it's two different DoT effects to manage even if only one is active.

It's potentially an interesting mechanic to explore, and not entirely without precedent; Machinists Heat gauge, for example.

So play a Machinist then?

I completely disagree with this, simply because that completely limits the potential of the Job moving forward

You say "limits", I hear "provides direction for". That's like complaining WHM is "limited" from getting Meteor when that's literally not the direction we've seen with the job.

[Nalien]

You suggested a water DoT and an ice DoT dependent on which Mana type it spends.
Elemental damage is purely cosmetic, being treated by the game as general "magic" damage outside of BLU content. The only reason to have an ice DoT and water DoT is if both are treated as separate mechanical entities.

So either you're suggesting one effect overwrites the other to make one "effective" DoT, in which case the separation doesn't matter at all because together they would behave as one DoT and you've provided zero reason to alternate anyway, or it's two different DoT effects to manage even if only one is active.

The separation is purely for the sake of Red Mages Mana gauge... Like literally half of Red Mages kit... What's the real difference between Veraero and Verthunder, for example... What's the difference between Verholy and Verflare? The difference is which you use based on how your Mana gauge is currently looking... I think what I've suggested for the DoTs is fairly fitting with that theme... The one you use is based on how your gauge is looking... Like literally half of Red Mages kit...

Regardless, as I quoted myself, I explicitly stated they wouldn't stack, so this seems like a fairly redundant point to jump on... I said they wouldn't stack, so why you're reading into it like they would is beyond me... I guess I should expect people to nitpick points I explicitly ruled out, going forward?

You say "limits", I hear "provides direction for". That's like complaining WHM is "limited" from getting Meteor when that's literally not the direction we've seen with the job.

Meteor doesn't fit White Mage because of the "theme" of the Job. Red Mages "theme" is very much its gauge usage. Limiting it to simply being about building 80/80 and then doing the melee combo is... Well... Limiting... There are plenty of other things they could use that gauge on, and it's a waste not IMHO.

Not to mention, if you purely focus on speeding up our gauge building... Aren't you going to hit a point of absurdity? You can only speed that up so much, and typically speeding anything up comes with adding more to it... Dragoon requires less build up, for example, but it has something new on the end. Same deal with Summoner. They're sped up, but that's because they're using it on more things too... An extra step at the end of the combo chain isn't the only way to add more to do with a gauge, though.

So play a Machinist then?

Ah the aged old argument of the FFXIV Official Forums... Go play X then...

I'll settle for playing the Job I enjoy, thank you very much. If you think that means I can't wish SE would add some new level of complexity to it, well there's not much point continuing this if so...

[Archwizard]

The separation is purely for the sake of Red Mages Mana gauge... Like literally half of Red Mages kit... What's the real difference between Veraero and Verthunder, for example... What's the difference between Verholy and Verflare? The difference is which you use based on how your Mana gauge is currently looking... I think what I've suggested for the DoTs is fairly fitting with that theme... The one you use is based on how your gauge is looking... Like literally half of Red Mages kit...

The difference is that those skills you mention have different effects, building specific resources and rewarding you for alternating them as a result of the Balance Gauge's overall design.
The skills you propose have the same effect as each other (a singular DoT which doesn't stack or provide any bonus for alternating, effectively just costing X mana of your current highest type), differing only by damage type (which by the game's coding is exactly the same anyway), but cost different resources purely for the sake of expending those resources. As you've said, what you're proposing doesn't even need to be in DoT form, you're just piggybacking off the opening.

If you were suggesting perhaps having each DoT grow in power when you cast it while the other DoT is active so that the two have a functional difference, maybe. But I still don't think it's necessary to have such an effect consume gauge, in no small part because putting an extra resource cost on its maintenance would make it more painful than most; you can't even use it in the opener.

There are plenty of other things they could use that gauge on, and it's a waste not IMHO.

Sure, and there are plenty of ways you could argue for BLM to expend charges of Polyglot too, but the problem is you have to weigh those values against its existing means while still giving each equal opportunity for use.

What you're suggesting is just spending gauge so we have to spend gauge as part of our rotation, which already is a role we have covered multiple times within the kit.
Damage aside, what mechanical purpose does your Enchanted DoT serve that we can't get out of Reprise (overcap prevention) or our Verfinishers (correcting imbalance)?

Not to mention, if you purely focus on speeding up our gauge building... Aren't you going to hit a point of absurdity? You can only speed that up so much, and typically speeding anything up comes with adding more to it...

If we eventually speed up to "a point of absurdity", then I'll have no problem with giving us more skills to spend and slow down the Balance Gauge.

We are not at that point. Hell, we're hardly any closer to that point in Shadowbringers than we were in Stormblood.

I'll settle for playing the Job I enjoy, thank you very much.

Yet you suggest adding a mechanic that you're basing on a job you supposedly don't enjoy.

[Shurrikhan]

And like I said, I see that as a waste. It's potentially an interesting mechanic to explore, and not entirely without precedent; Machinists Heat gauge, for example. Overheating is a punishment, except when it's not because you want to overheat for a burst window. Red Mage could function much the same way; Unbalancing Mana is a punishment, except when you want to for specific skills cooldowns.

I still miss the imbalanced MP cost reduction bug... That was a surprisingly neat incidental 'mechanic'.

I completely disagree with this, simply because that completely limits the potential of the Job moving forward.

I don't see how it would. A less costly melee combo allows for greater banking which in turn allows greater flexibility. Having more ways to build it, or taking less time to build up to a given combo, is not mutually exclusive with things to do with its gauge.

Simply put... Why not both?

[Nalien]

I don't see how it would. A less costly melee combo allows for greater banking which in turn allows greater flexibility. Having more ways to build it, or taking less time to build up to a given combo, is not mutually exclusive with things to do with its gauge.

Simply put... Why not both?

Oh I agree, my disagreement was more with the notion that the focus should be building towards the melee combo faster... That's... Never really the focus... Summoner builds its aether faster now, but would you say that's the focus of it at Lv80? I wouldn't, I'd say the focus is having access to Demi-Phoenix on top of Demi-Bahamut. Same for Dragoon, was the focus needing one less Eye of the Dragon (or whatever that eye mechanic was called)? Nope, it was on getting yet more Nidhogg (EX) skills.

Absolutely we should get more skills to assist in building gauge moving forward (fairly sure I've even suggested a few in this thread before), but they shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be on the new things we can do with that. For 5.0 that's sadly just Scorch (which actually also helps building gauge), for 6.0 I'd hope for something with a bit more bite.

I still miss the imbalanced MP cost reduction bug... That was a surprisingly neat incidental 'mechanic'.

Haha, honestly that was my inspiration for the idea. I remember at the time thinking it would be neat if there was an intentional mechanic that had us throw balance out the window. For the core of the Job? Absolutely balance should be the focus, but for a one-off skill, like a DoT? IDK, I think it'd be a neat mechanic to play about with.

[Archwizard]

Oh I agree, my disagreement was more with the notion that the focus should be building towards the melee combo faster... That's... Never really the focus... Summoner builds its aether faster now, but would you say that's the focus of it at Lv80? I wouldn't, I'd say the focus is having access to Demi-Phoenix on top of Demi-Bahamut.

The "focus" of SMN is reaching the Trances and Demi-summons as often as possible. They need to spend Aether to build their Trances, so faster Aether generation facilitates that.
The "focus" of RDM is reaching the melee combo as often as possible. Faster Mana generation or lower Mana costs facilitate that. Spending Mana in ways that compete with the melee combo... does not.

A more accurate comparison would be adding a mechanic to force SMN to hold its Aether as long as possible, or providing a rotational tool that spends Aetherflow but doesn't generate Aethertrail Attunement or Dreadwyrm Aether, thereby delaying Trances/Demi-summons.

Absolutely we should get more skills to assist in building gauge moving forward (fairly sure I've even suggested a few in this thread before), but they shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be on the new things we can do with that. For 5.0 that's sadly just Scorch (which actually also helps building gauge), for 6.0 I'd hope for something with a bit more bite.

I'm not against adding more ways to spend Mana, I'm against such new methods running counter to our primary mechanic. You want a skill the promotes being imbalanced, fine, just tell me how that realistically facilitates the end goals of our rotation, since as set-up, being too greatly imbalanced slows us down (as does spending extra GCDs to get that way) and we already have tools to benefit from small imbalances.

SMN got a new Demi-summon to pop after Demi-Bahamut, yes, but only after it had its Aether mechanics reworked so Bahamut comes out sooner. If we want to add a few more stories to this tower so it overshadows the heavens, we need to start by reinforcing the foundation so it doesn't topple over. Maybe add an elevator too. I think I lost this metaphor somewhere.
At the very least we need to build both ends to meet in the middle.

[Nalien]

The difference is that those skills you mention have different effects, building specific resources and rewarding you for alternating them as a result of the Balance Gauge's overall design.
The skills you propose have the same effect as each other (a singular DoT which doesn't stack or provide any bonus for alternating, effectively just costing X mana of your current highest type), differing only by damage type (which by the game's coding is exactly the same anyway), but cost different resources purely for the sake of expending those resources.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Verholy and Verflare deal the exact same damage, their only difference is to serve building the gauge. What I'm suggesting still fits with that, IMO, just going in the opposite direction; Verwater and Verblizzard would do the exact same thing, much like Veraero and Verthunder both deal the exact same damage, but rather than building the gauge they'd be something new two spend it on, and a provide a new mechanism for building the gauge (overbuilding on aspect) to add some new complexity to the Job.

Many people want Red Mage to remain the 0IQ Raise Bot that it currently is though, and fair enough everyone's entitled to their opinion. I'd much rather see the Job take what it currently has and evolve a bit, though. Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree; You only want 1 thing to spend gauge on (the existing melee combo), I'd prefer to have new things to spend it on. Your biggest objection here seems to be them costing gauge to apply, while I think it's a neat way to flip what we currently have on its head to play around with the exact same gauge a bit differently. To each their own though.

If you were suggesting perhaps having each DoT grow in power when you cast it while the other DoT is active so that the two have a functional difference, maybe. But I still don't think it's necessary to have such an effect consume gauge.

Actually, that was an idea I was floating, but as far as elements go it didn't really work both ways; Water into Ice certainly is fitting, but Ice into Water? Not so sure.

We are not at that point.

Not at the point of absurdity, sure, but I'd say Red Mage builds it gauge at a perfectly reasonable rate and there's no real need to speed it up considerably without also giving us something new to "spend" gauge on. I imagine SE agrees, given they've essentially done just that; Scorch is an extra GCD on the back of what we spend gauge on (as well as itself speeding gauge building up slightly), previously we spent our 80/80 gauge on 4 GCDs, now it's 5 GCDs. Not the only way to create more means to spend gauge IMO, but that's what we're getting in 5.0, so I'd hope for something different in 6.0.

Yet you suggest adding a mechanic that you're basing on a job you supposedly don't enjoy.

Actually, I was just using an example of another Job that uses the same concept of taking what should be a punishment mechanic and making it work when timed. Overheating on Machinist doesn't even function the same as what I'm suggesting for Red Mage... I'm not a fan of timed burst windows, and have not remotely suggested anything of the sort for Red Mage... I was not "basing" this suggestion on how Machinist works, I was merely pointing out that there is a precedent for punishment mechanics being used to add some depth to a Jobs mechanics. Unless you care to explain to me how keeping a Higanbana style duration DoT up by temporarily unbalancing the gauge, with applying the DoT rebalancing you, is remotely similar to Machinists Overheat burst window?

You don't like the idea of flipping current mechanics to get new use out of the gauge? Fine, just say that and move on. Stop making these bizarre strawmen to argue with...

Damage aside, what mechanical purpose does your Enchanted DoT serve that we can't get out of Reprise (overcap prevention) or our Verfinishers (correcting imbalance)?

Playing with the gauge differently? Adding a new level of complexity and gauge management to the Job? I see potential there for something interesting, whereas if you just add a DoT that maybe works the same way and fills up the gauge... What's that really done? Essentially it's the same as the rest of the spells, and you just replace an existing cast with it as needed.

If you need to overbalance one side of the gauge however, then you're thinking about the existing toolkit differently... Suddenly your opener might be; Acceleration > Veraero > Veraero > Verstone > Verwater. You might be 90/80 on your gauge, do your melee combo and think "I'll finish with Verflare as always", then notice your DoT is about to fall off, so instead you end with Verholy to overbuild White Mana in preparation for Verwater.

It's something new to think about with the rotation, and personally a mechanic I'd find interesting to play with. If the concern is with it slowing down gauge building for the melee combo... Well, I'd suggest not looking at the suggestion in isolation. As I said, SE tends to lower the requirements to building (be that directly by lowering requirements, or indirectly with new skills that speed the process up) while also adding new things to do once you've built. I've not suggested new methods for building here of course, but I would assume we'd get more than one new skill by Lv90... He says, casually ignoring the fact that we basically only got one new skill by Lv80...

And again, doesn't have to be a DoT, that was just the most obvious example to pull out, since Red Mage is clearly missing one and it's a fairly easy mechanic to fit into a rotation. You could easily have some oGCD that functions this way, with two entirely different effects depending on whether you've overbuild White or Black Mana, as I suggested;

Doesn't even have to be a DoT, could be any number of skills. If anything, a DoT is the boring option since both White and Black versions would essentially be the same. You could instead have a skill that does one effect while White, and another while Black. Certainly a much more interesting means to tie two skills cooldowns together than what we see with Displacement and Engagement.

Honestly I just CBA to come up with an effect for such a skill, a DoT is just an easy way to get the concept out there. I'd imagine, since you're overbuilding either White or Black, and thus leaning more towards White Mage or Black Mage lore-wise, that something defensive or restorative for White would make sense, while something offensive would make sense for Black. Of course that'd have you leaning towards Black most of the time. Something defensive or reactive doesn't really work either, since you kind of want that fast and overbuilding White isn't something you can just throw out easily. Perhaps something more supportive for White, with some raid utility, while Black is, well... Black Mage, all about your own numbers... Harder to balance though, harder to even come up with a solid suggestion for it, which again, is why I just went the easy route and suggested a DoT to float the concept.

[Archwizard]

Something I was thinking about last night (which may be a bit of a moot point now, but still):

Let's say the devs removed Engagement and the potency from Displacement, and put them all in Corps-a-corps or the melee combo.

Why would we ever want to use Displacement? As it is now, the backstep isn't really worth much, since the escape mechanism is only of use in niche situations. Unlike melee, there's no penalty to casters for being close to the target (aside from the increased risk of death in some instances), and the fact that we can attack from range is considered a reward in itself despite lack of incentive to really do so. As at least one person has mentioned already in this thread, they use Corps-a-corps to get that "sweet, sweet auto-attack damage", since RDM can afford to with its short casts.
{Sidenote, and with full understanding that our auto-attack damage is crap anyway and it's probably just to discourage caster auto-attacking: anyone else find it weird the auto-attack delay on Rapiers is super high? You would think it would be like, really fast but pathetically weak without using abilities...}

Now, without a complete rework to the dynamics of ranged and melee in general, not really much point in trying to tackle that just to give Displacement meaning.

Sure you could toss in a Stun or Heavy, but while that would be useful in some content like the overworld and dungeons, it's of little value in raids.
But at the same time, whatever value Displacement has shouldn't also be intrinsic to our performance, since we literally just removed the damage so we wouldn't feel penalized in situations where we can't backstep without dying.
I would think enmity, but the stance changes for tanks make that a near moot point too.

And then last night it finally hit me: If not for the reduced CD of Lucid Dreaming... what if Displacement somehow played with our MP?

CaC and Displacement each represent subtle transitions between melee and casting, without putting a hard Stance effect on either. While it's not a locked part of the combo, the example we're always shown is to CaC -> Enchanted Combo -> Displacement -> Verfinisher (and soon, add Scorch), the latter of which represent our hardest hits and second-largest period of MP consumption behind Verraising.
What if Displacement somehow marked the target so that your next spell against them restored or cost zero MP, or hits within a small period gave you some other non-damage bonus based on the damage dealt? MP consumption being an issue of little concern for RDM (allowing you to skip Displacement at no penalty), but still adding some personal benefit to using it at that point.

Just food for thought I guess.