Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Archwizard]

A random musing on MP regen...

What if...

... Casting a spell that achieves Black/White Mana balance caused you to regain some MP.

That way you will naturally get some MP back doing your normal rotation... But in a pinch, you can sac some DPS to use some more Joltpacts over Verfirones to force more equilibriums for more burst MP regen.

With it also being thematic because "Muh balance!"

An alternative could be "After achieving balance, your next spell cast that causes you to become unbalanced restores MP" if you wanted to prevent Scatterspam from being an easy way to get a bunch of MP regen.

I think my main concern with this is that due to the proc-heavy nature of our rotation, it's very easy to end up with imbalances of 1-5 MP that you can't easily undo, especially with small odd number differences; the only way to really control getting out of those is either to overcap or luck out. Not so hard to control early in a fight before you've had all your procs... but you won't be needing much MP at that point, will you.
An interesting thought, one potentially worth expanding upon and exploring for other bonuses even, but not for something so important as our MP gain.

Question:

Is Ice magic just Water magic that's cold?

Or is Water magic just Ice magic that's warm?

Can't tell if serious or trying to be funny... but the intent of that bullet point was to highlight the last B/W elemental pairing we have left. Thematically it makes sense to pair the two being the closest "match" on each side, much as lightning is considered heavenly and generated by the interaction of hot and cold air, and heat is naturally generated under the intense pressure within the earth. Sort of a "Poseidon/Zeus/Hades" theme.

But if that's a real question, Seraphor has the right of it within the canon. Conjurers/White Mages commune with elementals to manipulate surrounding matter for them, while Thaumaturges generate their own power to expel in the form of energy through arcane variations on physics.
"Ice" magic is more accurately "Cold" magic unrelated to water, which just so happens to freeze vapor in the surrounding air into solid form as a byproduct of its use before rapidly sublimating back into its original state (where Umbral Ice's ability to regenerate mana could be considered an endothermic reaction to this, directing energy inward to the mage to be expelled as fire and lightning), while Water magic is... well, water. Condensing and manipulating that vapor directly.

If we are to keep magic and elements the way they work in FFXIV, a Ver-Blizzard/Umbral Ice would be the go-to way of regaining mana.
Of course it does not have to be a proper stance mecanic as BLM, but it could be an oGCD that turns into VerBlizzard if your Black mana is higher, delivers an ice aspected magic attack with a MP refresh, or VerWater if White mana is higher (her I'm not sure what it could do because Water magic in White Mage is almost non existent). Make them AoE to soothe the crowd wanting more AoE on RDM

Hadn't thought about that before.

[Kalise]

"Ice" magic is more accurately "Cold" magic unrelated to water, which just so happens to freeze vapor in the surrounding air into solid form as a byproduct of its use before rapidly sublimating back into its original state, while Water magic is... well, water. Condensing and manipulating that vapor directly.

The issue is, that well... "Ice" magic often features a lot of control over said "Ice"

This can be from flinging ice at the opponent (Blizzard I) to dropping an ice shard onto their face (Blizzard IV)

Which makes the distinction between "Ice" and "Water" that much less clear.

Like, if you literally compare Blizzard I to Water I it's a case of "Fling a ball of Ice at the opponent" vs "Fling a ball of Water at the opponent"

With no indication that the "Ice" is being made out of any other element other than Water (There's no yellow snow for example )

My own headcanon:

Fire, Ice and Lightning are 'energies'
Electricity, heat and an absence of heat.

Wind, Earth and Water are 'matter', physical manifestations, or kinetic energy imparted on them.
Hence 'Conjury', you're conjuring something physical.

Technically, shouldn't Wind and Ice be reversed?

Since, wind is merely kinetic energy imparted onto air particles.

While with Ice, you're literally conjuring up physical Ice, especially depending on the spell, where you might literally be hitting your opponent with an ice cube.

[Seraphor]

Technically, shouldn't Wind and Ice be reversed?

Since, wind is merely kinetic energy imparted onto air particles.

While with Ice, you're literally conjuring up physical Ice, especially depending on the spell, where you might literally be hitting your opponent with an ice cube.

Nah, you're 'conjuring' a gaseous material.

You're not conjuring ice, you're just freezing whatever is there, the physical ice is just the ambient water content.
Otherwise Ice and Stone would be functionally identical.

[Kalise]

Nah, you're 'conjuring' a gaseous material.

In what world would that make Wind?

Just creating gas doesn't do anything.

Wind is literally kinetic energy imparted onto air particles. Thus making them move. Thus making wind.

Typically, its done via convection currents. (Thus, you could theoretically link Wind back to Fire/Ice if you heat up/cool the air in a particular area you can cause convection currents and thus, wind)

You're not conjuring ice, you're just freezing whatever is there, the physical ice is just the ambient water content.
Otherwise Ice and Stone would be functionally identical.

Okay... Explain Blizzard I then? Where you literally conjure up a ball of ice and then toss it at your opponent?

Also, yeah, Ice and Stone are thus functionally identical, with some exceptions such as Blizzard II which is freezing the area around you (Though, you also create icicles which could pierce like stalagmites might...) or Freeze which creates uhh... A snowstorm and thus deals damage using wind...

Magic is weird...

[Seraphor]

Kinetic energy is imparted against the newly conjured gas. Same thing you do with Stone and Water spells.
Just getting someone wet doesn't deal any damage does it?

[Archwizard]

The issue is, that well... "Ice" magic often features a lot of control over said "Ice"

This can be from flinging ice at the opponent (Blizzard I) to dropping an ice shard onto their face (Blizzard IV)

Which makes the distinction between "Ice" and "Water" that much less clear.

Like, if you literally compare Blizzard I to Water I it's a case of "Fling a ball of Ice at the opponent" vs "Fling a ball of Water at the opponent"

With no indication that the "Ice" is being made out of any other element other than Water (There's no yellow snow for example )

To my understanding, Blizzard 1 summons a mote of cold that crystallizes on impact (as visual opposition to a fireball detonating), rather than literally flinging an icicle. This actually has backing in science from cold air meeting elements with a high freezing point, particularly as moisture tends to condense around cold solids -- chill winds literally forming ice crystals, etc.

As for Blizzard IV, the natural conclusion to "I have a spell that generates cold of such high intensity that I can create limitless amounts of ice from thin air" is "why not drop an elephant-sized glacier on someone's head?"

To your point about Wind vs Ice, the mistake being made is the use of "conjure". FFXIV uses "conjure" in the classical sense of summoning spirits to your aid; you're not creating gas from nothing like a Thaumaturge does, you're calling on air from other places to converge on one point, which generates wind in the process.

More importantly: Why are we having this discussion in a feedback thread, rather than General Discussion or Reddit? Is it vital to some point you intend to make about not needing both, despite that the game treats them as separate?

[Lauront]

The elements simply exist intrinsically in the setting - that's why you get the division of 6 elements in Eureka. Then, on top of this, you get the umbral and astral aspecting, which influence their intensity and nature. So ice would be an inherently existing thing in the game, and the mage can shape aether into this element. There isn't a great deal more to it. I also don't see much of a relevance, since spells are already divided along these lines.

[Jonnycbad]

In 1.0 THM didn't have elemental magic, and CNJ could cast all elements (Stone, Fire, Water, Blizard, Thunder, Aero). THM was more of a Dark Magic/Enfeebling job that debuffed and had Bio/Dia/Dark/Blind/Paralyze/Drain/Aspir, etc.

[Archwizard]

I reiterate: Why is this relevant to RDMs?

This discussion of how magic works is getting the thread derailed. It should be more than sufficient to say "They're treated as different by the game."

[waifugenerator]

I 100% think that RDM is going to get some sort of ability with the name Refresh as a ref to XI, whether or not it operates the same. As for damage abilities, RDM is designed so perfectly that adding anything to its single target feels like it'll disrupt the almost choreographed flow of the job. Maybe a third finisher ability that's aligned with neither black/white magic for when you finish your melee combo with a balanced amount of mana that could proc Impact or something