What if DNC is SHOMHOW a DPS?

[Dustytome]

What if dancer had something similar to astrologian's sects except it changed the skills to between pure dps and heal/lesser dps? And they need to use whips.

[Bright-Flower]

What if dancer had something similar to astrologian's sects except it changed the skills to between pure dps and heal/lesser dps? And they need to use whips.

Part of me wonders, with them talking of potentially making two 'main tanks' and two 'off tanks' if they would end up making say WHM/DNC regen healers and SCH/AST shield healers. That would mean taking the choice away from AST though, which may make it easier to balance but also remove something people like about the job.

[InkstainedGwyn]

What if dancer had something similar to astrologian's sects except it changed the skills to between pure dps and heal/lesser dps? And they need to use whips.

Or maybe they don't get regens, they get minor group heals based off damage, and your standard big heals that have nothing to do with dps?

[Mesarthim]

What if dancer had something similar to astrologian's sects except it changed the skills to between pure dps and heal/lesser dps? And they need to use whips.

What if dancer had something similar to astrologian's sects

astrologian's sects

*Triggered*. But anyway the only part of this that bothers me is those times you come across an AST who either don't use a sect at all or uses the wrong one and then you get to deal with that for the entire run. Even though I am an AST main I'm not a big fan of the sect system with them. Of course this isn't a skill problem, it's a bad player problem. Only so many times I want to tolerate Noct ASTs with a SCH.

I'd like a healer that can play smoothly with another of the same job. Two ASTs can be a pain in the neck with card coordination or sects (usually the former).

[Raim]

If its a healer that heals partially through DPS then not only will it risk taking over WHM, but also taking over SCH if it has any kind of buff or debuffs (which is expected for DNC) at all. I could see tons of people wanting to run DNC/Noct AST.

[AvenoMatt]

If its a healer that heals partially through DPS then not only will it risk taking over WHM, but also taking over SCH if it has any kind of buff or debuffs (which is expected for DNC) at all. I could see tons of people wanting to run DNC/Noct AST.

I think they may be looking into changing how healers function like how they said they plan on breaking the trinity of tanks and make it more where one or I guess in this case 2 are designed with the intent of being MTs and the other a designed to be OTs so it could that they plan on making 2 healers be MHs with stronger heals and 2 be CHs with more focus on party support. I can see AST and DNC being designed to be the CHs and though still capable of healing the party and running content it would be less of them being able to heal/shield their party and more about them buffing/debuffing. This is just a speculation though but we do know that they obviously will be making changes to healers and tanks since they are adding new ones to the mix.

[loreleidiangelo]

I think they may be looking into changing how healers function like how they said they plan on breaking the trinity of tanks and make it more where one or I guess in this case 2 are designed with the intent of being MTs and the other a designed to be OTs so it could that they plan on making 2 healers be MHs with stronger heals and 2 be CHs with more focus on party support.

Call me a cynic, but I don't trust the dev team at this juncture to do what you're describing with any sort of competence, given their attempts to "solve" tank and healer DPS thus far. There's so many variables in this game that led to the cornucopia of fail that is FFXIV healer design that simply tweaking some potencies and maybe removing an OP spell or two and just saying "lul you're offheal now" just...won't work. You'll have scenarios where maybe a potential "off-healer" like SCH requires more effort but is still OP, so they remain meta anyway, because good players dont shun an increase in difficulty if the reward is worth it, or a situation where they're functionally useless and you roll dual WHMs or something for greater margins of error in your raid prog because they're just easier to play.

What healers need in this game are niches, tbh. When everyone is a "tank healer" and a "raid healer" and a "sustain healer" and a "burst healer" and a "mana-efficient healer" then you ultimately just take whatever does the most DPS or boosts the most rDPS. Note that the niches I described are different from "mainheal/offheal" which honestly I'm not even sure I've seen any MMO do anyway. Yes, having two healers competing for the same niche CAN lead to scenarios where one is objectively better than the other, but that in and of itself is solvable with balancing metrics like utility (which in a world where raid encounters were designed a bit better would mean more than just "DPS buffs"), mana economy, and complexity.

There's more than just that at play here (overall ridiculous throughput relative to health bars is something else, but I won't go into that right now), but healers in this game having zero weaknesses or areas where they struggle, at least in terms of "just healing" is a big part of why WHM fell out of favor. When SCH got ETactics and Indom, what was the value of WHM? Cure III? LOL. When the devs created AST, they had to paste on pretty much all of the abilities they gave WHM and SCH, because otherwise the new healer couldn't compete. That's why AST was frankly the biggest disappointment of new class design I have ever seen in my 10 years of playing MMOs, which is a shame because everything OUTSIDE of its lame pasted-on healer mechanics is great IMO.

[InkstainedGwyn]

Not that I expected anything less, but I'm laugh/crying at the reach attempts here. Healers and tanks don't even have enough classes to separate into "types" of healers/tanks and we've got salty (spoiled) DPS crying because they want new animations to do the same thing they always do. I've been listening to people describe the way Gunbreaker "should" have been on various threads and the majority comes down to: "shoot a bunch, then jump into close combat and melee a bit". Now, correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't that sound kind of familiar?



Huh.

"OMG ARE YOU STUPID? ONE IS PHYSICAL, ONE IS MAGIC!"

No. If all I do is "push buttons to make people's health go up" then all you do is push buttons to make people's health go down. What you want is just new animations and aesthetics - and so do I.

"But I don't like half of the classes in my chosen role, so let me explain why I want more." I don't like SCH. I'm not fond of the playstyle, I prefer big-number heals/regens to shields. So I get to count that out, right? So I only have two classes to pick from (that's how this works, right?)

I mean, I could point out the main difference between "tank/heal/DPS" - the level of responsibility. After all, DPS just get to push a memorized button rotation while (rarely) avoiding mechanics (note: there are those of you who have learned to do both and I love you for it.) Tanks get to do all of that but also backwards and while also watching aggro (for the "aggro is the best parser" dipsticks) and tank swap mechanics. Healers should be maintaining as much of a DPS rotation as they can while also watching the same (or often extra) mechanics and the lives of the DPS who have tunnel vision and decide that Cid's mechanics are just "suggestions." (To be fair, there isn't much ambient damage if the other teams don't miss mechanics like duskblade [they always do] but you'd better hope you don't have more than 1 vuln when you take that crush tether or you're going to lay there until I decide I can spare the MP to rez you.) So I get it. It's super appealing to play roles that focus and require less multitasking. But don't then belittle the people who do want to take on that extra level of responsibility you really don't want and tell them to be happy with "new aesthetics" once every 6+ years.

[linay]

"But I don't like half of the classes in my chosen role, so let me explain why I want more." I don't like SCH. I'm not fond of the playstyle, I prefer big-number heals/regens to shields. So I get to count that out, right? So I only have two classes to pick from (that's how this works, right?)

I agree that tanks/healers could use more options, but this particular argument is just bad strawman, and you shouldn't use it because you don't need it to further your argument. At the very least, it would be more applicable if scholar has a different limit break effect than white mage or astrologian, wear different gears, and/or has different role actions. Otherwise, if everyone uses this type of argument, then a dark knight could ignore paladin/warrior and a black mage could ignore summoner/red mage. On DPS, you have three limit break effects, 3 different sets of role actions, and up to 5 different types of gears (at least for left side). Clearly the game provides some differentiation among DPS outside of individual jobs, so it's not equivalent to your scholar argument, which is only unique in the job level.

(And now that I've said that, it would be interesting to have different role actions/gears/limit break effects for healers/tanks, probably won't get me to work on healer, but still cool to see.)

[kazzel120]

As it is all the healers/tanks right now play pretty much the same way. Which is what I meant by the statement.


Ok just going to stop you here right now. No not all tanks play the same not even close if you actually took the time to play them you'd know this.

Getting real sick of this whiney ass dps should have x job because it doesnt make since as a tank/healer. I for 1 would habe quit had they not made Gunbreaker a tank.

HW made me change from a dps main into a tank main because of just DRK.