Please no more Eureka!

[Reynhart]

When information is contrary to implementation, I'm partial to second guess said information.

Except that it's not. Eureka is exactly what it was advertised to be, and was created for the reason they claimed it to be. A content where the main goal is to build the relic, not targeted at everyone.

The main story in Eureka is Krile's quests about figuring out how the island moved across the world, what the deal is with her grandfather that WoL is having flashbacks about, what that hooded dude is doing that WoL keeps seeing.

Yes, because, they learned back in ARR that putting a story behind something that requires dedication will only make people complain. If you're only interested in the story, you just need to level up, do the quests, and you're done. Although, to be fair, I'm surprised they put the epiloque after the Arsenal.

I'm pretty sure that no other job needs to party in order to complete their JOB QUESTS.

Neither does BLU.

Nor does any other job need to party in order to GET THEIR SKILLS.

No, but they need them to get their gear, to reach their full potential. None of the EX skills are really required for BLU dedicated content.

For soloing low level dungeons, other jobs are in the same boat as BLU, which is that they need to outlevel them in order to do so.

Except BLU don't need to outlevel them.

Hence, BLU is the most party orientated job in the game, since some of the features of the job that every other job can do solo, BLU requires a party to accomplish.

What can other jobs do solo that BLU can't ?

Chaining mobs existed before they added in alternate ways to gain experience that were much, much better.

Not in XIV.

Exploring zones... Is literally what the Sightseeing Log is all about.

Sure, flying over everything to use an emote at specific points. Totally the same.

Choosing specific targets for specific rewards... You mean like Hunts?

Right, like hunts. Like this A rank that gives seals and tomestones...and that other A rank that gives...seals and tomestones...or that other A rank...that gives...seals and tomestones. Very strategic choices.

Also, sounds a lot like old FATE Train experience grinds that existed before they made crap like Duties and PotD so much more efficient.

Except that FATE are not tied with what the people do, so there was no train management or community.

Used to be that you exclaimed that the Relic didn't need to be the end reward for Eureka just that it made sense to put grind reward at the end of grind content...

The relic don't need to be the end reward for completing Eureka. It needs to be the end reward for grinding for hours aside of completing it. Even though Eureka was created for the relic, it's not just the relic, since you can do it without touching your weapon, but the grinding inside it needs the relic as a reward. Would you gather hundreds of crystals and farm lights for hours for a title ? Or a mount ?

Except for the fact that in previous Relics you were able to progress on it with multiple types of content?

Yeah, and that was considered a problem by the dev team, remember ?

Except for the fact that unlike Alpha or Empyrean weapons, the Relic is a large grind throughout an entire expansion?

It doesn't matter. Relic asks one type of dedication that people might not want to put. I might not want to put time in repeating HoH over and over again in the chance to gain enough power to create the Empyrean, especially since I might not have finished PotD, so I might not even enter HoH, or suffer through Savage for the end weapon. Why shouldn't I be offered more options, then ?

Yet you defend with zeal the notion that people whom have grown accustom to working on the Relic with content they like when asking for the Relic to once again being able to be worked on with content they like are somehow not allowed this?

On that specific topic, what I defend with zeal is "Don't like it, don't do it". Suffering through Eureka because you wanted the relic doesn't put you in a noble position to attack me because I wouldn't do the same.

Yeah, sure. It's easy to play the Martyr when it happens that it's not the case that you even need to be in the situation where your argument would be pushing for a reward you care about being in content you don't care about.

Funny, it's almost like all the people that where perfectly fine with the relic being tied to Eureka, and Eureka not being for everyone years ago and backpedal heavily now because they claim that relic should be for all.

I mean, you've already stated that 1) You only cared about the Relic because it was in content you liked and 2) That you like Eureka.
So, claiming that you're somehow a saint because if the Relic (Which you don't care about) was in content you didn't care about that you'd still be pushing for that exclusivity doesn't mean a great deal.

Yes, and I also stated that you simply shouldn't do a content you don't like. So, connecting the dots should easily gives the conclusion that if I don't like the next relic content, I would simply don't do it and not create threads and threads about how the relic should be made more available. I also suggested that exclusivity is important because otherwise content might be dead on arrival, and that tome gear is too powerful because it negates the weight of dungeons rewards, primal weapons and even raid gear. So, trust me, I'll never advocate to make important gear available for simply running daily roulettes over and over again like you could in ARR and HW.

Also, "Spreading grinders into separate content" suggests that you believe that Dungeons, Trials and Raids are dead because all the Relic Grinders are in Eureka...Or is it that you believe that Eureka is poor enough content that without the Con-Eureka players forcing themselves into the content purely for the Relic that "Eureka" content would be dead?

So kind of you to only give me two (totally unbiased, of course) options. But it's neither. It's simply that having two content with the same mindset with split part of your playerbase with that same mindset. And you know you can still like Eureka even if you prefer another type of grinding content, right ? But if your goal is shared between the two, you will mostly do the content you prefer.

The thread of spreading grinders too thinly only has merit if, "Eureka" content was poorly received

"only...if"...well, if you say so, it must be true, I guess. Or simply because "heavy grinding" being a niche activity, it already covers only a small part of the playerbase, and splitting them would only make each content having, at best, half the population it has now, on top of having to balance the two options so that none of them is heavily unfair.

If however, alternate means of grinding was duties... Then how would it be much different from now, where duty grinders grind duties and Eureka grinders grind Eureka?

It would be different because even some Eureka grinders would switch to the fast food, generic appeal of duties, since it requires no organisation, no communication and no progression at all.

You know, except for their being fewer leechers in Eureka that are AFK waiting for NM spawns instead of actually helping spawn them, or grouping with people to chain enemies/farm light/logos...

You would have less people period. Not just leechers.

[Kalise]

Except that it's not. Eureka is exactly what it was advertised to be, and was created for the reason they claimed it to be. A content where the main goal is to build the relic, not targeted at everyone.

Except, even in Eureka, the Relic takes a back seat. Being just tossed in as Krile's afterthought to the main questline of "Go talk to Gerolt about something"

Yes, because, they learned back in ARR that putting a story behind something that requires dedication will only make people complain. If you're only interested in the story, you just need to level up, do the quests, and you're done. Although, to be fair, I'm surprised they put the epiloque after the Arsenal.

Well, apparently they didn't learn particularly quickly, given that HW's Relic had a story behind it and required dedication...

You might argue that the story wasn't particularly great, but it was still there. Behind the gate of the Relic grind.

Neither does BLU.

Unless you want to finish the level 50 Quest, which requires you to learn Glower, which is only sourced from unsoloable content (Outside maybe the Alexandrite treasure chests that occasionally feature a Cyclops... Though I've yet to see if they cast "Glower")

No, but they need them to get their gear, to reach their full potential. None of the EX skills are really required for BLU dedicated content.

BLU needs Garuda for their only Wind aspected skill.

BLU also needs to do Stone Vigil (Hard) or The Steps of Faith in order to get Diamondback which is necessary for some of the Masked Carnivale stages.

Also, no, other jobs don't need parties for gear. You can solo craft high item level gear as well as solo grind out Tomes of Genesis (Such as by going into Eureka and leeching from NM's) to buy Tome gear.

Except BLU don't need to outlevel them.

Actually they do.

Unless you can go show me a BLU that is able to solo their way through Aurum Vale to learn Glower. Heck, go in as an unsync'd level 50 (Outleveling the dungeon) and still try and solo up to Glower.

What can other jobs do solo that BLU can't ?

Their job quests. Again, BLU needs a party to go learn Glower to do their level 50 job quest.

Not in XIV.

I certainly recall chaining mobs back in 2.0. Better than sitting on my hands while waiting for FATEs to respawn.

Sure, flying over everything to use an emote at specific points. Totally the same.

As opposed to what in Eureka? Exploring to find...? An Elemental Fairy thing for a buff?

Also, in ARR the Sightseeing Log had you decipher clues and find specific places at specific times/weather and do specific emotes (Rather than HW/SB logs that were mostly the same emote)

There's also treasure maps in non-Eureka content, where you "Explore" to find the location.

Right, like hunts. Like this A rank that gives seals and tomestones...and that other A rank that gives...seals and tomestones...or that other A rank...that gives...seals and tomestones. Very strategic choices.

It's still a mechanic that has existed in XIV forever. Sure, they could have expanded on it. But it still exists. It's not like it's a brand new thing that Eureka has done that has never been seen in the game before ever.

Except that FATE are not tied with what the people do, so there was no train management or community.

I remember there being train management and community. I remember it being pretty much exactly the same as it occurs in Eureka. Only without also needing someone to maintain a Tracker for the instance to see what FATEs can be spawned.

The relic don't need to be the end reward for completing Eureka. It needs to be the end reward for grinding for hours aside of completing it. Even though Eureka was created for the relic, it's not just the relic, since you can do it without touching your weapon, but the grinding inside it needs the relic as a reward. Would you gather hundreds of crystals and farm lights for hours for a title ? Or a mount ?

Sure, I'd farm a ton for a title or a mount.

So long as the grind wasn't total trash.

But then again, I also farmed for The Insane title in WoW, I farmed dungeons/raids endlessly for 0.1% drop chance mounts (Over the course of literal years). I farmed every faction rep to not only the required exalted, but to 999/1000 max for simply an achievement.

I'm farming MGP to buy cosmetics and mounts from Gold Saucer. I'm farming out 2.0 and 3.0 relics for just Glamour. I'm planning of farming DF on PLD/DRK for their mounts too, despite me not particularly liking them as jobs to play.

I grind for plenty of things. So long as the grind isn't total garbage, I'm fairly open to rewards.

Also again, I'm not advocating of removing the ability to farm for the relic in "Eureka" content.

Yeah, and that was considered a problem by the dev team, remember ?

And I'm arguing that it need not be considered a problem, remember?

It doesn't matter. Relic asks one type of dedication that people might not want to put. I might not want to put time in repeating HoH over and over again in the chance to gain enough power to create the Empyrean, or suffer through Savage for the end weapon. Why shouldn't I be offered more options, then ?

Because the Relic is an expansion long grind? Which means if it's tied to specific content you have to play that specific content for the entire expansion? Meanwhile for Savage/HoH, you only need to play through that content long enough to obtain the weapon once and you're done.

To say nothing about the precedent that the Relic already has for being obtainable through multiple means. While Alpha and Empyrean weapons have only ever been attainable through their respective content.

Also, no-one's denying you the ability to request Alpha/Empyrean weapons through alternate means. If you feel you deserve to be able to attained them through alternate means, go ahead and put up a suggestion. Don't just whine about other people bothering to make a suggestion that doesn't include every single item in the game in its scope.

On that specific topic, what I defend with zeal is "Don't like it, don't do it". Suffering through Eureka because you wanted the relic doesn't put you in a noble position to attack me because I wouldn't do the same.

I never claimed to be in a noble position.

I'm here with a very clear position. Which is, I personally don't like Eureka content and I feel that the Relic weapon, which used to be available through multiple avenues of content, should once again be created with multiple avenues of content being usable to work on it, including "Eureka" content.

With, additional stuff to grind for added into "Eureka" content too.

That is it. Nothing more. I don't pretend like I'm being benevolent, or noble. My desires are fuelled by personal wishes, it's just that, I'm also aware that making things better for everyone is also easily possible while fulfilling my personal wishes.

Funny, it's almost like all the people that where perfectly fine with the relic being tied to Eureka, and Eureka not being for everyone years ago and backpedal heavily now because they claim that relic should be for all.

I can't speak for others, but an no point have I ever stated years ago being fine with the Relic being tied to Eureka.

Mainly because I only started utilizing the forums and paying attention to announcements like those at Fan Fests relatively recently.

I can only assume that years ago, no-one knew what Eureka was going to be like. Ergo, it's hard to be against it if you have literally no idea that it was just going to be a glorified zone of FATE Trains and Light farming.

Yes, and I also stated that you simply shouldn't do a content you don't like. So, connecting the dots should easily gives the conclusion that if I don't like the next relic content, I would simply don't do it and not create threads and threads about how the relic should be made more available.

And this is supposed to mean something to me?

Why should I care if you'd make a thread about something?

I'm not the forum police. I couldn't care less if you made threads about stuff.

So kind of you to only give me two (totally unbiased, of course) options. But it's neither. It's simply that having two content with the same mindset with split part of your playerbase with that same mindset. And you know you can still like Eureka even if you prefer another type of grinding content, right ? But if your goal is shared between the two, you will mostly do the content you prefer.

Then it leads back to the option regarding "Eureka" content not being as liked as you hoped.

If your goal is shared between two types of content and you prefer one of them but still like the other... You'll still do both. Since you'll likely find it monotonous to keep doing the same content for as long as a Relic grind lasts.

To say nothing about the OTHER rewards each type of content brings. Maybe you stop playing your preferred content and start doing "Eureka" because you have obtained all the non-Relic rewards from your preferred content, but still have all of "Eureka's" unique rewards left to get that you'll work on alongside your Relic grind.

Since it seems like all you associate "Eureka" with is the Relic. Never mind the set of armour you can upgrade, all the mounts, minions, hairstyles and furniture that the place contains.

"only...if"...well, if you say so, it must be true, I guess. Or simply because "heavy grinding" being a niche activity, it already covers only a small part of the playerbase, and splitting them would only make each content having, at best, half the population it has now, on top of having to balance the two options so that none of them is heavily unfair.

Or maybe, if both pieces of content are equally well designed and thus liked, that both can exist even with "Heavy Grind" players being split between them?

Or maybe you know... Other rewards are a draw to get people to play both pieces of content - Independent of the Relic.

It would be different because even some Eureka grinders would switch to the fast food, generic appeal of duties, since it requires no organisation, no communication and no progression at all.

So basically, some Eureka grinders would abandon their "Preferred" content?

Is this supposed to be an argument that Eureka is well designed and well liked when you're stating that even people who like the content will ditch it if possible?

You would have less people period. Not just leechers.

You got proof of those claims? Especially if there was more "Eureka" specific content like I'm suggesting there be.

You got any proof that these claims would even have an effect? Given that Eureka already runs on an instance based format limited to 144 people per instance, all you need is 144 people in the content and you wouldn't know the difference between it being the most popular thing in the world, or just being niche content.

Or are you just scared that the content will be dead because everyone will ditch the place like hot garbage in favour of literally anything else to do with the Relic because no-one cared about the content or any of the other rewards associated with the content?

Since this is just false, plenty of people have mentioned they liked the content, plenty of people have farmed out the minions and mounts and hairstyles etc.

Thus, the content will be populated. Especially if it's implemented after taking into consideration peoples feedback about Eureka, meaning it won't drive people away with crappy NM spawns and trashy Pagos light farms.

[shibeouya]

I can't understand the folks who claim that the relic should have different paths to allow them to completely bypass Eureka.

If we use that argument, then we need to apply it to other things.
If I don't like Savage, I should have a way to grind for the Savage weapon without setting foot into Savage.
If I don't like Extreme primals, I should have a way to grind for their weapons without setting foot into Extreme primals.
If I don't like Ultimate, same boat.
Then it would make sense to have a separate path for Eureka as well.

And frankly, I would support having multiple paths to do everything. But the chances of that happening are close to zero, so why would people like Eureka to be the only content to have an alternate path?

I think it's just entitlement. A very vocal minority dislikes Eureka and feels entitled to the weapon without having to put in the effort for it.
I don't do Savage, yet I'm not asking to have a way to get these weapons. They are tied to Savage and it makes sense like that. Just as it does for Eureka.

I often see the argument that Eureka would be deserted if relic wasn't tied to it.
To that I would say, what do you think would happen if you took out all the rewards from Ultimate and just rewarded a title. Would many people bother with it? Same for savage to an extent.
We need rewards in any content to incentivize people to play. It's worked like that since this game was alive.

[Kalise]

I can't understand the folks who claim that the relic should have different paths to allow them to completely bypass Eureka.

I can't understand the folks who claim that the Relic should be separated in to some new content to allow them to completely bypass the Tome grinding and old content.

If we use that argument, then we need to apply it to other things.

If I don't like Savage, I should have a way to grind for the Savage weapon without setting foot into Savage.

If I don't like Extreme Primals, I should have a way to grind for their weapons without setting foot into Extreme Trials.

If I don't like Ultimate, same boat.

Then it would make sense to create new content to stick the Relic behind.

I think it's just entitlement. A very vocal minority dislikes farming old content and feels entitled to the weapon without having to put in the effort for it.

I don't do Savage, yet I'm not asking to have a way to get these weapons. They are tied to Savage and it makes sense like that. Just as it does for Relic grinds.

I often see the argument that old content would be deserted if Relic wasn't tied to it.

To that I would say, what do you think would happen if you took out all the rewards from Ultimate and just rewarded a title. Would many people bother with it? Same for Savage to an extent.

We need rewards in any content to incentivize people to play. It's worked like that since this game was alive.


I hope you realize it's possible to make the same arguments when talking about shifting from previous Relic grinds which were more flexible into "Eureka" right?

Even more so when you claim it's "Entitlement" because people don't want to "Put the effort in" while most Eureka players say that Eureka has been easier and faster than previous Relics.

But yet, people who complained about previous Relics get catered for with this new "Eureka" content that is apparently, easier and faster to grind for relics. While anyone who was okay with the previous methods is now "Entitled".

Even ignoring the fact that, personally, I'm advocating for more "Unique Eureka" stuff to have as rewards. In addition to being able to farm out Relics. So it's less "Wah, I want Eureka's stuff" and more "Wah, I want my stuff back, give the Eureka players NEW stuff to go with their NEW content"

[Araxes]

I can't understand the folks who claim that the Relic should be separated in to some new content to allow them to completely bypass the Tome grinding and old content.

If we use that argument, then we need to apply it to other things.

If I don't like Savage, I should have a way to grind for the Savage weapon without setting foot into Savage.

If I don't like Extreme Primals, I should have a way to grind for their weapons without setting foot into Extreme Trials.

If I don't like Ultimate, same boat.

Or wanting to have "pvp" top 100 Rewards and not be willing to set foot in to the Feast.

[Alucard135]

I can't understand the folks who claim that the Relic should be separated in to some new content to allow them to completely bypass the Tome grinding and old content.

The thing is, grinding old content is not a content in itself, so we can't use the argument that way. These old content already served their own purposes and have their own rewards. So grinding old content and tomes is not a content designed for the relic in mind, unlike Eureka.

Or wanting to have "pvp" top 100 Rewards and not be willing to set foot in to the Feast.

Exactly! just like wanting to have the relic and not be willing to set foot in Eureka.

[Kalise]

The thing is, grinding old content is not a content in itself, so we can't use the argument that way. These old content already served their own purposes and have their own rewards. So grinding old content and tomes is not a content designed for the relic in mind, unlike Eureka.

Except for the fact that a main portion of the complaints around previous Relics was "I want Relic but don't want to farm old content"

So, it's exactly comparable.

Farming old content, extending its lifespan by breathing new rewards into it (Effectively like "Adding" new content by increasing the pool of relevant Dungeons/Trials) was something that enhanced gameplay. Something that was removed at the behest of people who complained about having to do that for the Relic.

One could use the exact same arguments as are being made for Eureka exclusivity on Relics for keeping Relics behind old content.

"You don't NEED the Relic"

"Don't like the content? Don't play it"

"Relic is supposed to be a grind that isn't for everyone"

Eureka is not designed with the Relic in mind. In the same sense that old content farms were not designed with the Relic in mind. Just having the Relic being exclusively earned from Eureka doesn't make it designed around it any more than Tam-Tara is designed for Zodiac weapons because you can farm up light there.

Nothing about Eureka explicitly is designed around the Relic. The story is mostly focused not on the Relic, but on the zone itself. The Relic isn't necessary at all to progress through the content. The Relic barely interacts with the content (Just the Elemental Bonus eventually). The Relic grind itself doesn't use anything that is unique to the content (FATEs/Light farms are not new. Neither is farming for items such as Logos Actions).

Just because the devs say "We designed the content for the Relic" doesn't actually make it so. If they had actually utilized unique Eureka only systems for the Relic grind (Such as needing to beat X, Y and Z enemies with your Elemental Wheel set to elements A, B and C, or with Magicite set in specific ways as opposed to stacking 5 in a single element to swap around for max damage with additional Magicite (That is attained through RNG currently...) being set to whatever the corresponding defence up will be) then this argument might have more merit.

However, as it stands, there is little difference between Eureka and previous Relics. Only that, inexplicably, instead of getting its own rewards (Which I advocate for) the Dev's got lazy and slapped in the Relic and removed the multi-faceted way of progressing such items that existed prior.

If, Eureka had been given its own, unique reward instead, this entire topic wouldn't exist. There wouldn't be an argument about Relics. There wouldn't be all these people complaining about Eureka (Aside from the "We lost content because of it!" thing, exacerbated by old content not being stretched out by Relic progression being tied to it). No-one would care that Eureka had exclusive rewards that could only be attained via grinding Eureka.

That is the crux of the issue. Instead of bothering to create new rewards for the new content, the Dev's decided to take an existing reward and stick it behind the new content. Not because they want to do something new, not because they feel the unique content is an interesting system for Relic progression (Since the Relic progression is largely unchanged from previous, in the sense that it's merely just FATE/Light farm stages ad infinitum) - Given the way that the Relic currently sits within the content. But because they're seemingly trying to entice people into a type of niche content that has failed previously as well as reduce the work needed to think of rewards by just taking another existing reward from somewhere else.

Exactly! just like wanting to have the relic and not be willing to set foot in Eureka.

It's more akin to if in ShB they made PvP top 100 rewards come from farming in a open world PvP zone. Where PvP enthusiasts then start complaining about having top 100 rewards no longer being tied to top 100 status and being told "Why do you need those rewards?" or "You still have wolf seal rewards!"

[Crushnight]

Well Eureka is designed with the relic in mind the reasons being:

1. You need the exp
2. Fates are required for the items
3. Pyros/Hydatos Bunnies chance to offer logograms which you need to get relic
4. Heat/Moist warped lockboxes give logograms
5. You can't get the gear without possessing the relic weapon
6. normal mob kills in Pagos/Pyros can give light
7. Adaptations/Mutations give light/lockboxes/logograms needed for relic
8. the Big bosses of each area has a relic specific item required
9. BA drops fragments to upgrade relic to final step

The only things not tied to the relic is the Eureka Story, pagos bunnies and basic area lockboxes. You go to the isle of Val for 2 reasons 1. Krile 2. Hancock/Rowena sees profit there so to start you went there because of weapons/relics and Krile it just evolved storywise to exclude the relic.
Also it is completely possible to never touch a fate to get to elv 60 but you have to do fates for relic so fates are implemented for the relic + exp

EDIT: Also all these things listed were not retroactively added to existing content the only step of the previous 2 relic questlines to have this was ARR base relic

[LaylaTsarra]

I can't understand the folks who claim that the relic should have different paths to allow them to completely bypass Eurek.

Gets to a point where it doesn't pay to respond anymore. Points have been made, opinions expressed. To each their own but the developers are the ones making the decisions. They took feedback and made Eureka for relic because they recognized that people weren't happy overall just running the same old boring content over and over again. They've taken feedback again I'm sure and have looked at the participation this xpac and will come up with a formula for relic for 5.0. The fact they expressed something to the effect they are working on Eureka type content sort of indicates relic will be more than just a rehash of old content. Perhaps they will broaden the scope both with instanced open world and the regular world but that remains to be seen.

I've expressed my views. i've enjoyed Eureka in 4.0 and am so happy we got something new. I certainly hope 5.0 will bring us new content as well and not simply a rework and rehash of the current Eureka formula.

Perhaps we'll learn something about it with the upcoming Tokyo event in about 10 days although I suspect that info will come later in upcoming live letters.

[Rufalus]

I think I'd rather spend 500 hours in eureka than 500 hours in say normal dungeons. Imagine how much people would hate bardam's mettle if they had hundreds more runs of it left to go for their weapon. So in that sense I'm glad they made new content rather than sending us on a massive farm of old content. Yes there are many flaws in eureka but experimentation and iteration may eventually lead to content that most people like. I think eureka went over better than diadem, maybe next expansion the side content will be something good based on lessons learned from this patch cycle.

The thing that keeps surprising me about eureka is how many different ways people keep finding to be rude and selfish and problematic. Some people who don't need crystals any more have started going into instances just to cause problems for people who are still farming, like pulling far and reseting an NM that was almost dead so we wasted our time fighting it, or entering BA alone and sitting there a while to prevent ovni spawning again for people later because it counts as a BA run already in progress. They just annoy people because they find it funny and negative attention is better than nobody giving them attention I guess.