No discussion on fixing Blu?????

[Kabooa]

Well... Technically, there would be significant work in making it a full job.

Blu's almost already balanced around doing comparable damage to other jobs.

Unusually powerful skills are a number tweak to just being good.

Weapons 1 - 70 can literally be Black Mage / White Mage staves cut in half (Like how Dark Knight Weapons are just "Paladin But Bigger", how Ninjas got Paladins old dagger models, and Paladins just got various texture shifted Mid 30s weapons to fill the 1-30).

Whalaqee totems provide the best way to ensure functional kits and serve as "Duty Unlock" milestones. To unlock the 'best' Blue Mage AoE spell, you need any 4 spells from Glower, Aqua Breath, Flame Thrower, Plainscracker, Drill Cannon, etc. To participate in X duty, you need A, B, C Whalaqee totems.

[Kalise]

Blu's almost already balanced around doing comparable damage to other jobs.

At level 50. With around ilevel 120-130 gear.

Without a weapon that functions normally.

How BLU's damage scales beyond 50 and how it would adjust to suddenly having a weapon with stats, are things we cannot currently know, but are things that would have to be monitored and adjusted by the balance team.

Unusually powerful skills are a number tweak to just being good.

It's not just powerful skills that would need tweaking, but how they interact with level syncs as a whole. Given that all of their skills are available at level 1 and thus are kept when sync'd down.

Which is in of itself, imbalance between it and other classes that have more limited kits when sync'd.

Weapons 1 - 70 can literally be Black Mage / White Mage staves cut in half

They still have to make them and add them to all the relevant loot tables and vendors.

Whalaqee totems provide the best way to ensure functional kits and serve as "Duty Unlock" milestones. To unlock the 'best' Blue Mage AoE spell, you need any 4 spells from Glower, Aqua Breath, Flame Thrower, Plainscracker, Drill Cannon, etc. To participate in X duty, you need A, B, C Whalaqee totems.

Whalaqee Totems also directly conflict with the ideology of BLU which is to go and learn skills from enemies and to have a flexible skillset that you can adjust.

Having BiS skills, from totems no less, would completely go against BLU and just go back to "Why is this class even BLU?"

Not to mention, that even in your suggested "To unlock the 'best' Blue Mage AoE spell" doesn't account for the fact that one of the primary issues with BLU is that Song of Torment, Eruption, Static Strike and Glass Dance are all vital for their DPS rotation. Those would need to be accessible or a viable substitute or a BLU player will be gimped.

Also, what would you consider to be the "Best Blue Mage AoE spell"? Would it just be Glower 2.0 and be just a 140 potency spell you spam forever? Or would it be a BLU special and have some form of combo to it like The Ram's Voice > The Dragon's Voice?

BLU would need some fleshing out in a way that leads itself to having a "Standard" skillset with ample variation so that the essence of the class is not lost.

This would take a fair bit of work, in addition to then showing people the way for these things. Like, in your suggestion, how would you tell people they need 4 of those 5+ spells to get the Whalaqee Totem? How would you notify people that they need that Totem and potentially other ones in order to access Duties? How would you show people that the skill they get from the Totem is actually the best skill and they should have it in their skill set when they queue up for a Duty?

[Kabooa]

, how would you tell people they need 4 of those 5+ spells to get the Whalaqee Totem? How would you notify people that they need that Totem and potentially other ones in order to access Duties? How would you show people that the skill they get from the Totem is actually the best skill and they should have it in their skill set when they queue up for a Duty?

If you want details from a 5 minute blurb, fine, but you can easily answer all of these questions yourself.

Putting Blue Mage on the same formula as literally every other job simplifies any concern about their scaling. It's literally just potency / second since the end result weapon damage and main stat will be the same.

You limit Blue Mage's Load Out slots by level. That keeps lower level from being dumb.

Oh no, database entry. The most time consuming part of game development :P

The root of Blue Magic making its way to us as players was anthropological. It was through studying the way a people lived that the two figures in question learned and thus moved to make use of it. In this regard, the level 1-50 of Blue Mage (The "Backbone" levels of basically every job in terms of base mechanics), having the Whalaqee totems be the capstone of the learning building block is fine.

How would you tell people to get those skills to unlock the totem?
Job quest, that isn't level locked. "Lore dump here, but I won't share this with you until you show me you're dedicated to your studies. Go and learn spells that [put your descriptor here]."

How to notify them they need this?
Job quest. Also by locking off load out slots in the blue magic spell book. Also by just clearly putting a text in the duty finder, along the lines of "You do not qualify because: You must progress your Blue Mage Job quests."

How 'best' skill
The load out slot you unlock enhances whatever ability you put in that matches the type it was unlocked for.

[Kalise]

Putting Blue Mage on the same formula as literally every other job simplifies any concern about their scaling. It's literally just potency / second since the end result weapon damage and main stat will be the same.

Except BLU currently has Maim and Mend V with the pattern suggesting getting a new Rank of Maim and Mend at levels 60, 70 and 80. This in combination with Off-Guard can grant BLU some pretty absurd scaling.

This would need balancing.

You limit Blue Mage's Load Out slots by level. That keeps lower level from being dumb.

Okay. But how would you do that?

Currently, you can place any spell in any slot in the load out.

Which ones will you have access to when sync'd? What if someone hasn't put a usable collection of abilities in those slots?

Oh no, database entry. The most time consuming part of game development :P

It's still time taken. On top of the myriad of other things they'd need to be addressing.

The root of Blue Magic making its way to us as players was anthropological. It was through studying the way a people lived that the two figures in question learned and thus moved to make use of it. In this regard, the level 1-50 of Blue Mage (The "Backbone" levels of basically every job in terms of base mechanics), having the Whalaqee totems be the capstone of the learning building block is fine.

Except many players and devs disagree. BLU has always been about learning from enemies. It would irk a lot of players if suddenly the learning mechanic from BLU was scrapped in favour of just shoving a bunch of totems down your throat.

How would you tell people to get those skills to unlock the totem?
Job quest, that isn't level locked. "Lore dump here, but I won't share this with you until you show me you're dedicated to your studies. Go and learn spells that [put your descriptor here]."

You mean the same job quests that many people dislike doing? That they've tried to go away from in terms of locking abilities behind because of that fact?

How to notify them they need this?
Job quest. Also by locking off load out slots in the blue magic spell book. Also by just clearly putting a text in the duty finder, along the lines of "You do not qualify because: You must progress your Blue Mage Job quests."

Again, locking content behind job quests is not a reasonable answer. Many people don't like doing job quests. Even more so BLU job quests which, notably, 1-50 ones currently require 2 spells from dungeons (One is soloable at higher level, the other would require level 60+)

Not to mention, where are all these job quests going to go? Given we already have 1-50 worth of quests. Will BLU not be able to unlock more ability slots until level 50+?

How 'best' skill
The load out slot you unlock enhances whatever ability you put in that matches the type it was unlocked for.

But that doesn't answer the fact that your suggestion had the "Best BLU AoE spell" locked behind this totem that required you to learn several other AoE spells in order to access. How is that "Best BLU AoE spell" shown to be the best, in a way where people will put it onto their load out, instead of playing to one of the core design values of BLU which is the flexibility of your loadout.

Also, enhanced how? Remember, this will also then have to go through aforementioned balancing with M&M and Off-Guard and weapon damage/potency formulas.

you can easily answer all of these questions yourself.

Easily? No.

I can find answers for all of the questions, yes. But I'm aware that it wouldn't be easy to just up and implement all of these things, there's a lot of stuff to do in order to make BLU a real job, especially one that retains its uniqueness which is necessary to justify its inclusion in the game, if it didn't have the learning aspect then it wouldn't be BLU it'd be just BLM 2.0.

I personally feel that the work would be worth it in the end, but I'm not naive enough to think that this would be something they could crank out easily. There's a lot to consider. I mean, we haven't even scratched the surface of things such as job quests from, 50-80, job gear design at appropriate levels, relic weapons, ensuring all new abilities that would be added between levels 50-80 would be balanced and would enhance the job (I.e. Not just a ton of re-skinned copies of 130 potency spells) especially if you're suggesting having BiS skills coming from totems.

Where would spells like the aforementioned ones from EX Trials fit in? Would other Primals give abilities? Would they share CD's with the current ones or would there be new pairs? How would you get these new pairs which would become mandatory for the DPS rotation? Would there be any other spells from Dungeons/Trials/Raids? Would any of them be mandatory for optimal play? What about the leveling process and duties? Will there be spells from high level HW/SB/ShB enemies that would be mandatory for play? How would these be accessed in regards to someone at say, level 50 wanting to use the duty finder? Will there be any spells that are direct upgrades? How would these work when level sync'd, would you be stronger than another BLU in the party merely because you're level 70 and have a better spell when sync'd down to level 30 than say a level 50 BLU being sync'd down to level 30?

Will BLU have any additional traits? If so, what would they be?

[Kabooa]

You frankly aren't paying me, so I'm not going to draft a whole design document just to make a point to you. That isn't to say you don't raise good points, just not ones you absolutely require me in particular to answer.

Traited %increases are just a matter of math. They'd just do the standard "No more after 50". It's basic algebra to tune this in either case, be it "adding more traits" or "removing traits".

I never said you wouldn't learn skills from enemies anymore.

It quite clearly answers the question. You put your chosen skill into the enhanced slot and now it's better. It's your 'best' AoE. Those six enhanced slots form the basic backbone of your kit and every ability you can place into the normal slots revolve around them. Flexible AF loadout.

Need numbers on "Many don't like unlock quests", because boy howdee, are they going to be in for a shock in Shadowbringers.

[Shurrikhan]

Except BLU currently has Maim and Mend V with the pattern suggesting getting a new Rank of Maim and Mend at levels 60, 70 and 80. This in combination with Off-Guard can grant BLU some pretty absurd scaling.

This would need balancing.

Wouldn't "putting Blue Mage on the same formula as literally every other job" already include limiting/expanding it to the same mainhand weapon drop frequency and dependency and the same Maim and Mend traits (as per casters, ranged, and NIN) or compensating potency (Monk, Dragoon, Samurai) all other DPS have?

There's no over-tuning in any aspect of BLU usable in endgame or the like that can't be straightforwardly compensated for or simply made a nonissue with a potency adjustment.

The time-staking issue isn't external balance. External balance is easy. The issue is internal balance.

Okay. But how would you do that?

Currently, you can place any spell in any slot in the load out.

Which ones will you have access to when sync'd? What if someone hasn't put a usable collection of abilities in those slots?

Ideally? You apply internal balance. You make it so there is no "best" skill, but rather trades between immediacy/frequency/accessibility/versatility and power. Think of it like gauge skills. Guren hits like a truck, sure, but how much damage does it actually offer to your rotation? Only around 4 to 5% of total damage. That's big, but comes at opportunity cost.

Now, imagine if Tail Screw, rather than having any CD (or RNG and lack of any effect on bosses or higher-level enemies for that matter), had a deepened interaction with gauge, equivalent specific to water element or "compression" aspects, thus making it naturally far less frequent than a mere 50 gauge would be to SAM (i.e. nearer to 90-120 seconds of generation to be maximally charged). You have to determine whether you want to build your kit around it, and which other strong skills as not to waste general gauge while pushing water/compression.

Internal balance is really only one smart, even if fairly simple, system away. We just to have somehow gone lengths to avoid the idea in favor of learning outweighing gameplay, rather than complementing it.

[Kalise]

Wouldn't "putting Blue Mage on the same formula as literally every other job" already include limiting/expanding it to the same mainhand weapon drop frequency and dependency and the same Maim and Mend traits (as per casters, ranged, and NIN) or compensating potency (Monk, Dragoon, Samurai) all other DPS have?

It depends a lot on how their base potency would react with Off-Guard. But even so, it would still be a not minimal amount of work to retune their scaling and M&M traits and create and include all their necessary weapons and make sure that they're still balanced (At all stages of the game) to an acceptable standard.

With of course, accounting for various skills that would make up the backbone of BLU's rotation.

Not necessary difficult, but it would be some amount of work to do. As, just because something is easy, doesn't mean that someone doesn't have to spend time doing it.

Ideally? You apply internal balance. You make it so there is no "best" skill, but rather trades between immediacy/frequency/accessibility/versatility and power.

Well, the issue is still with figuring out a good way to limit spells for syncing purposes, whilst still enabling BLU's to perform mundane tasks such as queuing for Leveling Roulettes that can range from level 15 Sastasha to level 69 Castrum Abania or even something like entering PotD.

As unless you make 99% of spells just copy/pastes and/or jack up the potency of like 1-2 spells for them to spam for ever, this will need to be considered. Like, limiting spell slots doesn't stop me from having say... Loom, Toad Oil. Sticky Tongue, Moon Flute, Flying Sardine, Acorn Bomb, Bristle and Blood Drain in those limited slots. Which are not unreasonable spells to have in a loadout alongside a damage rotation.

While at the same time, allowing BLU to access their full damage rotation (Off-Guard, Glower, Song of Torment, Bristle, Eruption, Static Strike, Glass Dance, Peculiar Light) during sync'd content would be unbalanced.

Not to mention, trying to lead people into equipping this damage rotation, or something relatively similar would be important, without just creating clear BiS skills that nullify the experimentation aspect of having a bunch of skills learned.

You can tailor the balance of skills like Tail Screw and the like later, but in order to make BLU functional as a normal job, you need to address the baseline things first. Which is, getting people to be adequately equipped to deal with content in the game, without just making BLU into literally any other job and being given their skills directly (Either from leveling, from Job Quests or from Totems) because by doing so, you diminish the actual point of having BLU over any of the many other Magical damage Jobs that could have been implemented like every other job

[Shurrikhan]

It depends a lot on how their base potency would react with Off-Guard. But even so, it would still be a not minimal amount of work to retune their scaling and M&M traits and create and include all their necessary weapons and make sure that they're still balanced (At all stages of the game) to an acceptable standard.

With of course, accounting for various skills that would make up the backbone of BLU's rotation.

Not necessary difficult, but it would be some amount of work to do. As, just because something is easy, doesn't mean that someone doesn't have to spend time doing it.

No one is debating that it would take greater than an infinitesimally small time to achieve. But unless it's going to take more time to salvage the job than to deal with its cumulative contribution to distrust, to replace the resources wasted on it, and continue producing "BLU-unique endgame content" for its few loyal participants lingering, it's worth the time. They've dug not just a hole here, but a sinkhole that will expand with time, under a corner of their house.

Well, the issue is still with figuring out a good way to limit spells for syncing purposes, whilst still enabling BLU's to perform mundane tasks such as queuing for Leveling Roulettes that can range from level 15 Sastasha to level 69 Castrum Abania or even something like entering PotD.

If internally balanced, you literally don't need to make any arbitrary or categorical adjustments. You just limit the number of slots, and players place them in the order they most to least want to retain, same as cross-class or role-action skills previously but proportionate to its own maximum rather than the set 5-10.

If that feels aesthetically unfit compared to everyone else, you just categorically limit what can go into the set based on minimum source level (e.g. if the lowest level mob from which you can get it is 26, you can't use the spell unless 20 or up), and definitely allow BLU to save a multiple different decks, between which to quickly switch.

As unless you make 99% of spells just copy/pastes and/or jack up the potency of like 1-2 spells for them to spam for ever, this will need to be considered. Like, limiting spell slots doesn't stop me from having say... Loom, Toad Oil. Sticky Tongue, Moon Flute, Flying Sardine, Acorn Bomb, Bristle and Blood Drain in those limited slots. Which are not unreasonable spells to have in a loadout alongside a damage rotation.

They are if you balance them. The more skills you'd spend on the damage rotation itself within a builder-spender system with varying specificity of resource, the less contribution each successive skill will make past a little over a dozen or so. Will damage still then be competitive with utility? Yes, so long as utility also scales in some manner. Regardless of level sync, BLU cannot work cohesively without its status effects seeing reasonable scaling. Fix that aspect of BLU, and you also fix so much of the design incongruities in the game that have only further gutted and streamlined all things status effect over each expansion.

While at the same time, allowing BLU to access their full damage rotation (Off-Guard, Glower, Song of Torment, Bristle, Eruption, Static Strike, Glass Dance, Peculiar Light) during sync'd content would be unbalanced.

Then balance the skills. There's no reason Off-Guard need even remain unless it's actually fun to use. it has no precedent and does little more than give back damage previously gutted away from BLU in a manner as hamfisted as the original removal.

Not to mention, trying to lead people into equipping this damage rotation, or something relatively similar would be important, without just creating clear BiS skills that nullify the experimentation aspect of having a bunch of skills learned.

That's literally what we have now. Creating decks around certain deeper skills that share aspect with the status effects and utilities you feel will be most useful in your composition and given the fights to come allows for more experimentation than we have now, not less.

You can tailor the balance of skills like Tail Screw and the like later, but in order to make BLU functional as a normal job, you need to address the baseline things first. Which is, getting people to be adequately equipped to deal with content in the game, without just making BLU into literally any other job and being given their skills directly (Either from leveling, from Job Quests or from Totems) because by doing so, you diminish the actual point of having BLU over any of the many other Magical damage Jobs that could have been implemented like every other job

That literally just comes down to better in-game information of what skills are out there, as per the Recommended Duties list on log-in and the BLU-unique interface, where to get them, and what they do, rather than veiling it to extend playtime under the guise of "community emphasis".