Gender locked race?

[Karl0217]

There's that inflated notion that adding one pair of genderlocked races will somehow majorly damage the game in the west. You people are delusional at this point, I swear.

Gender-locked races definitely damaged the 1.0 version of the game enough that one of the first things Yoshida did after taking over the project was remove them. Or have you forgotten that?

[Shippuu]

Gender-locked races definitely damaged the 1.0 version of the game enough that one of the first things Yoshida did after taking over the project was remove them. Or have you forgotten that?

You'd be absolutely hard pressed to back that claim up with any actual hard evidence. The genderlocks in 1.0 were FAR from anywhere near the myriad of issues that plagued that game.

[redcurrant18]

You'd be absolutely hard pressed to back that claim up with any actual hard evidence. The genderlocks in 1.0 were FAR from anywhere near the myriad of issues that plagued that game.

That doesn't erase the fact that it was one of the many highlights and defining features that made ARR a better game with more customization options, with one of its allures being no more gender locked races.

[Karl0217]

You'd be absolutely hard pressed to back that claim up with any actual hard evidence. The genderlocks in 1.0 were FAR from anywhere near the myriad of issues that plagued that game.

Never said they were the only issue. As for hard evidence, the fact they devoted money, time and manpower to undoing the gender-locks on the Highlander Hyur, Miqo'te and Roedraygn for the 2.0 build speaks for itself. As you just said, myriad issues plagued the 1.0 build; yet removing the gender-locks on the races was one of the things they gave priority to. Obviously the development team viewed it of critical importance; I wonder why.

[Shippuu]

Never said they were the only issue. As for hard evidence, the fact they devoted money, time and manpower to undoing the gender-locks on the Highlander Hyur, Miqo'te and Roedraygn for the 2.0 build speaks for itself. As you just said, myriad issues plagued the 1.0 build; yet removing the gender-locks on the races was one of the things they gave priority to. Obviously the development team viewed it of critical importance; I wonder why.

You need to prove the gender locks had a meaningful damaging effect on 1.0. Them undoing the gender locks isn't indicative of them necessarily feeling like they were damaging to the game, but were likely just one of many avenues they could use to earn bonus points with their existing and future playerbase for the relaunch. Just because they did something to try and regain favor after their game failed so bad it damaged the entire brand doesn't mean they will always do such. Especially considering Yoshida himself said he might do a future gender locked race as a counterpart to Viera after they had undone the 1.0 gender locks.

[Karl0217]

You need to prove the gender locks had a meaningful damaging effect on 1.0. Them undoing the gender locks isn't indicative of them necessarily feeling like they were damaging to the game, but were likely just one of many avenues they could use to earn bonus points with their existing and future playerbase for the relaunch. Just because they did something to try and regain favor after their game failed so bad it damaged the entire brand doesn't mean they will always do such. Especially considering Yoshida himself said he might do a future gender locked race as a counterpart to Viera after they had undone the 1.0 gender locks.

If you want to play that game how about you first prove that a gender-locked race will be a major selling feature for the Korean and Chinese markets. It is not like that market is lacking in games with that feature. In fact, where is your hard statistical data that Square Enix re-introducing gender locked races (after removing them previously) won't have a negative impact on their NA/JP/EU markets? I see a lot of personal opinion in your posts but little in the way of hard data.

[Mikki]

I engage you to consider the following though: Japan is a highly traditional country where even though in America we might be slightly more progressive... In Japan the typical "Sexy/soft female - Strong male" thing is their desired preset. It's ingrained in their culture as a patriarchal society.

So while they are a global company, they have to make certain accommodations (male bunny suit) they aren't going to jump with arms wide open into feminine bunnybois. This is represented in every anime trophe ever. But it's not as though strides haven't been made, we've seen some more progressive themes filter into the game little by little. But I mean keep in mind that this game is created by a japanese company. It's going to take time.

I live in Japan and have for 5 years so far and am married to a Japanese man. I can tell you that actually, pretty men are quite popular here. No one even bats an eye at men with "cutesy" things like adorable phone cases (and I do mean sickeningly adorable ones that you'd probably never see men in the US having unless they are extremely comfortable in their sexuality or openly homosexual.), super cute charms and plushies dangling from their bags or phones, and in general being fashion conscious. Most men are slim... the only time I saw many buff men here was in university since my uni was known for PE and it was always obvious when the guys were studying for that. But look at any advertisements here, any popular and "heart throb" actors and any popular male singers. They are almost entirely "pretty boys". In fact, even looking at most protagonists from the FF series.... mostly pretty boys. Right? The buff guys tend to hang out as supporting characters. Why? Because they know that this is what sells.

I think the case with XIV is a bit different. There is no main character to sell - primarily Derplander acts as the "main character" and I think we can all agree that for the most part, midlander hyur males are "pretty boys". They are the "default" race for a reason. I think it's pretty obvious that in this case, if they don't include Viera males, it comes down to Yoshi P's personal taste which is a bit disappointing (I don't think it's Matsuno's personal choice, as if it were then I find it unlikely that those old concept arts would have happened in the first place). Did you know that Lakshmi was originally designed to look more like a traditional Hindu Goddess? She was more plump and mature looking. However, according to Soken, Yoshi P demanded that she be made cute and forced the dev team to change her. Her song even almost ended up changed but luckily everyone stood against Yoshi P on that and I feel the only reason they could convince him to keep it was because the song isn't meant to be sung by Lakshmi herself. I respect Yoshi P a lot but it's disappointing to me that he lets his own personal taste get in the way of his business sense at times. Although I do understand, especially with Lakshmi, pretty women sell. But so do pretty men!





I think, if male miqote had never been made playable, there would be a much smaller outcry. Most people arguing here are citing lore as a reason. But I feel it's a very weak reason, especially when someone has already crunched lore accurate numbers and found male moon keepers are more rare than male viera. What's more, I think player characters should be treated as if they don't exist since regardless, they do not line up with what lore dictates they should (way too many miqote, for sure - not enough hyurs).

In the end, I've been playing since 2.0 alpha and I certainly won't stop simply because they don't give us male Viera. Heck, I already pre-ordered. But I do think it's incredibly disappointing if the main reason we don't get Viera males is because Yoshi P was "uncomfortable" with them. And that WOULD be the reason, as I really don't buy lore being why when miqote have already broken that and when player characters should have no bearing on lore anyway. As long as the NPCs remain appropriately dispersed then I don't see the issue - I mean, I think I can count the number of male moon keeper NPCs I've seen on one hand. And outside of tribe areas, it's pretty rare to see male sun seekers, too. You know, lore also states that White Mages should only be padjals. In fact, in the class quest the brother was adamant that the player character cannot know the ways of the white mage. Yet we have tons of white mages running around. I'm pretty sure white mage can't be the only job that's not meant to be easily wielded by a majority of the population. PLAYER CHARACTERS CANNOT BE INCLUDED AS CANONICAL IN THE WORLD OR ELSE ALMOST ALL LORE IS BROKEN.

I'm not sure what to expect though. Will it truly be gender locked? Won't it be? We lack enough information to make any accurate guesses. But the response from Yoshi P when asked about males to "wait until fanfest" is a bit telling. It's possible the males simply weren't ready and maybe Matsuno wanted to be present for their unveiling since he couldn't be for the race as a whole. But it's also possible that he simply wants to reveal Hrothgar as the "male equivalent" - he can't do that at EU fanfest of course. To simply say "No male Viera" is harsh. But to say, "Well... we don't have male Viera but we DO have Hrothgar!!!" is, at least potentially in SE's eyes, less harsh. And perhaps they hope that the entirely new "surprise" race will be enough to placate the player base's rage about not having male Viera. So that's why he chose not to answer a direct yes or no. Who knows, truly. But I do hope that we are all worrying for nothing.

[Shippuu]

If you want to play that game how about you first prove that a gender-locked race will be a major selling feature for the Korean and Chinese markets. It is not like that market is lacking in games with that feature. In fact, where is your hard statistical data that Square Enix re-introducing gender locked races (after removing them previously) won't have a negative impact on their NA/JP/EU markets? I see a lot of personal opinion in your posts but little in the way of hard data.

I don't have to prove anything because unlike you making direct statements that they did X because of Y in the past I was only proposing a theory as to potential reasoning for something they may or may not have done. I'm not claiming they absolutely did something because of other markets, but it could absolutely be a factor in the decision.

And no player race is a major selling point for this game's expansions. Stormblood did better than ever without adding a new player race. The good thing is the burden of proof is on you still to first prove that the game would be damaged if they added genderlocked races. It certainly didn't hurt FFXI's success, to the point they didn't change it when they first made FFXIV. It wasn't until that game failed catastrophically did they then use it as an opportunity to earn brownie points fixing it, to which then stating publicly they were open to a future genderlocked race with Viera specifically.

Besides, Heavensward didn't get damaged when they opted for Au Ra over viera. Stormblood didn't get damaged when they opted for Nothing over viera. Now Shadowbringers is coming, and it's bringing the viera that the vast majority of players aware of what a viera is think of when they think of viera. So yeah, its a pretty safe assumption nothing is going to happen except a bunch of whining.

[redcurrant18]

I don't have to prove anything because unlike you making direct statements that they did X because of Y in the past I was only proposing a theory as to potential reasoning for something they may or may not have done. I'm not claiming they absolutely did something because of other markets, but it could absolutely be a factor in the decision.

And no player race is a major selling point for this game's expansions. Stormblood did better than ever without adding a new player race. The good thing is the burden of proof is on you still to first prove that the game would be damaged if they added genderlocked races. It certainly didn't hurt FFXI's success, to the point they didn't change it when they first made FFXIV. It wasn't until that game failed catastrophically did they then use it as an opportunity to earn brownie points fixing it, to which then stating publicly they were open to a future genderlocked race with Viera specifically.

Besides, Heavensward didn't get damaged when they opted for Au Ra over viera. Stormblood didn't get damaged when they opted for Nothing over viera. Now Shadowbringers is coming, and it's bringing the viera that the vast majority of players aware of what a viera is think of when they think of viera. So yeah, its a pretty safe assumption nothing is going to happen except a bunch of whining.

Uhh you are the one who's always asking me to prove every single thing I say and now you can't back up your own nonsensical posts? You don't care about player character race but for other people it does matter, especially when its a race as popular and well-known as Viera. You only ever seem to demand evidence when people go against you, and now you can't be bothered to bring up evidence the one time someone calls you out. FFXI was ok in the context of the time it released in-things changed-and MMORPGs that repeated genderlocking have failed here in the West. No one here that I know of is playing games like Tera. FFXIV and WoW are what's dominating the fantasy genre of MMORPGs and neither game has genderlocked races.

Enjoy these male Vieras, whose artists didn't feel "uncomfortable" drawing:

[Shippuu]

Uhh you are the one who's always asking me to prove every single thing I say and now you can't back up your own nonsensical posts?

The irony of you calling anyone out about nonsensical posts is hilarous.

You don't care about player character race but for other people it does matter, especially when its a race as popular and well-known as Viera.

It's a good thing the players are getting Viera then. Considering only female Viera have ever been shown in Final Fantasy games that's exactly what we're getting.

You only ever seem to demand evidence when people go against you, and now you can't be bothered to bring up evidence the one time someone calls you out.

If you can't grasp why a hypothetical explanation for a decision that has yet to happen is different than claiming something absolutely happened without evidence than I can't help you there. I've provided more than enough evidence for plenty of claims I've made when asked.

FFXI was ok in the context of the time it released in-things changed-and MMORPGs that repeated genderlocking have failed here in the West.

For one, there's a big difference between releasing a genderlocked race that can play everything, and a game where the genderlocking is tied to actual gameplay elements/classes. Two, once again, you'd be hard pressed to prove that was why those games did poorly (and even then, to what extent is it them failing? Tera is still around, and it came out in 2012 in the West. Black Deserts is still around, as is Vindictus (2010). Upcoming big western developed MMO Darkfall, which earned a lot in crowdfunding has gender and race locked classes.
Wildstar(2014) didn't have gender locking, and even had an animal eared race where the males were smaller than the females (Like a lot of people seem to want for Viera). Is that game still around?
Other MMO's (debatably) failing that happened to have gender locks isn't proof that gender locks ruin a game, especially when those games had many other issues( Even then, most of those game's genderlocking is of a worse kind, tying it to actual playable content in the form of restricting classes). Just like me using Wildstar as an example of an (actual) failed MMO isn't proof that having an animal eared race ruins MMO's.