Pulling as PAL

[Noldornir]

Before hitting LvL 60 I hardly had pulling issues in Dungeons (4-man) but lately things are changing here's what happens in general LVL 60 Dungeons (Post-HW ones):


Useful info:
I tank with Sword Oath; always but while engaging a boss (i prefer to use a shield-oath RoH combo just to have a lot of enmity upfront in case than swap back to sword)


While against a pack of common enemies:

Let's say 3 monster are there and i Shield lob at one; assuming i dont have a regen or something like that on they'll all get pissed off and attack me.

I let them come then use Flash (while walking behind em so they turn away from DPSs)->Circle of Scorn->Attack the first one hit with the shield.

By doing this I can have the following results:

1. The DPS focus on the first enemy hit (the one i shield-lobbed); in these cases all is cool
2. The DPS decide to focus on a different target than me; this usually leads in an aggro loss within seconds.
3. The DPS "splits" the damage (targetting different monsters) this is usually the worst scenario; mobs start running around and I have to split my enmity

In case 1 when the enemy dies i'm about to loose enmity/just lost it (he died the instant he started to pursue a DPS).

In case 2 I can do something by swapping target (if I realize it fast enough).

In case 3 the only option is to perform RoH repeatedly in this pattern:

Monster 1= (my first target, hit by shield lob at beginning of fight)= fast blade - Savage Blade
Monster 2= Rage of Halone

Or just flash twice more and then go for Goring Blade Combos.

I'm wondering what would be best of these choiches tho:

1. Stick in Shield Oath for packs (i'll loose 20% damage but maybe I won't need to waste time on aggro moves, is the extra time worth the -20%) using pretty much Goring/RA combos.
2. Use more flashes upfront (maybe 2-3?) and then only use Goring Blade/RA (but stick in sword oath)
3. Use RoH in Sword Oath pretty much exclusively on adds (they usually die before i can perform another full combo or they have so little life by then i just use RA to finish em off)

Any other opinion (which is not "change tank") is appreciated

P.S.

Is this "issue" still present at lvl 70 or it gets better thanks to Requiescat+Holy Spirit?

[Legion88]

I'm not a pro but for 60+ dungeons just always pull 2 packs (don't do that if you are undergeared in leveling dungeons, some of them can really beat you up).
Flash multiple times and start eclipsing out of the deepest of your heart till you hit below 350 TP and start with spreading GB all over the remaining targets (interweaving additional Flash if necessary).
Every DPS who is using single target skills or rotation on 4-6 mobs should be reviewing his skills and relearn his job.

If you are unsecure stay in Shield Oath.
It is easier to gain faster killtimes on trash packs with AoEing DPS then with the switch in Sword Oath.

[Kurando]

How big are the mobs (are you pulling big) and why are you tanking them with Sword Oath if you know you have issues? In dungeons lv 60+ other roles have access to more powerful actions that will take aggro from you even if they use Diversion/Lucid (which are like every 2mins on cd I think). You can't trust players through matchmaking to use common sense either, some will attack different targets to the rest of the group forcing you to adapt your enmity direction.

[Nedkel]

Sword oath is not good for trash pulling, especially on a PLD where dmg you gain from it is too low in comparison to the healer castin his aoe spells.
Stay in shield oath for trash pulling and pull more, that way you could speed up the process instead of going for 1 -2 groups of mobs go for 2-3. Being in shield oath you generate enough enmity by just using aoe's, circle of scorn and total eclipse.
That way you could just focus on using your def cooldowns and AOE damaging spells, i guarantee you, you will be doing more DPS than trying to keep enmity in sword oath by using flash, combo and etc and dungeon will go a lot faster if you pull more.

Btw
take a few minutes and watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fS-FVrY74Y
and this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fS-FVrY74Y

[Phoenicia]

There is no real benefit to tanking packs of mobs in sword oath outside of negating the shield oath penalty while still accessing oath gauge for sheltrons (which is also kind of useless in aoe). Sword Oath adds an additional hit to your auto attack, in AoE you're only auto attacking 1 enemy even if you are using AoE abilities.

In general, 3 enemies is the magic number where you want to use your Aoe instead of single target as it is more damage. Every class follows this rule.

Btw
take a few minutes and watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fS-FVrY74Y
and this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fS-FVrY74Y

You pasted the same video twice.

[Kaedan]

Sword oath is not good for trash pulling, especially on a PLD where dmg you gain from it is too low in comparison to the healer castin his aoe spells.
Stay in shield oath for trash pulling and pull more, that way you could speed up the process instead of going for 1 -2 groups of mobs go for 2-3. Being in shield oath you generate enough enmity by just using aoe's, circle of scorn and total eclipse.
That way you could just focus on using your def cooldowns and AOE damaging spells, i guarantee you, you will be doing more DPS than trying to keep enmity in sword oath by using flash, combo and etc and dungeon will go a lot faster if you pull more.

Btw
take a few minutes and watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fS-FVrY74Y
and this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fS-FVrY74Y

This. The benefit you gain from Sword Oath is pretty insignificant for trash pulls. In fact, outside of hard content, Sword Oath isn't that useful at all. Tanks tanking in their DPS stance is only really beneficial for content with DPS checks.

[Noldornir]

How big are the mobs (are you pulling big) and why are you tanking them with Sword Oath if you know you have issues? In dungeons lv 60+ other roles have access to more powerful actions that will take aggro from you even if they use Diversion/Lucid (which are like every 2mins on cd I think). You can't trust players through matchmaking to use common sense either, some will attack different targets to the rest of the group forcing you to adapt your enmity direction.

Depends, that's an issue i'm starting to notice with medium sized enemies (normal trash, not "big" trash nor like those instances where you have to kill 10-20 very weak mobs) Think at the "standard" pack of trash you usually find grouped in a 3-4 units in a dungeon with no special monster of sort.

I'm tanking in Sword Oath cause i always did it since 50. I have the full squire set so damage handling is not a problem in 60+ dungeon. Was never necessary while around 50 (because my only combo was RoH probably).

Sword oath is not good for trash pulling, especially on a PLD where dmg you gain from it is too low in comparison to the healer castin his aoe spells.
Stay in shield oath for trash pulling and pull more, that way you could speed up the process instead of going for 1 -2 groups of mobs go for 2-3. Being in shield oath you generate enough enmity by just using aoe's, circle of scorn and total eclipse.
That way you could just focus on using your def cooldowns and AOE damaging spells, i guarantee you, you will be doing more DPS than trying to keep enmity in sword oath by using flash, combo and etc and dungeon will go a lot faster if you pull more.

This looks like an intresting advice, i'll test out TY!!

[Steelbreeze]

Flash twice on pull. Flash when blind wears off. Flash again when blind wears off. (21 seconds of blind). This of course like all things tanking is situational. If the incoming damage is fine and the threat is also fine, feel free to switch over to doing damage full time.

Now, if there are 4+ mobs, eclipse till TP starts to run low. If <4, spread goring blade. Feel free to remove regens from yourself on the pull. When low on TP, req and holy spirit, but tab to spread em around.

[Rongway]

3. The DPS "splits" the damage (targetting different monsters) this is usually the worst scenario; mobs start running around and I have to split my enmity

This is the most effective outcome, and therefore the outcome that most people want. If a tank's enmity generation doesn't support this approach, the tank is probably not generating enough AoE enmity. A tank especially needs to generate more AoE enmity if pulling one group at a time. This might sound counter-intuitive, but in reality, DDs' enmity generation will be much spikier on smaller groups. On larger groups, the DDs will be using AoE attacks, which will generate a much more diffuse enmity pattern than you will see on small groups. Of course the DDs should be Diverting when possible, but in practice this is only usable on 1/2 of large pulls or 1/4 of small pulls (a second Diversion on the third or fourth group will prevent Diversion from being available on the next boss).

On smaller groups, there will be less AoE happening and enmity generation will be much more concentrated. To avoid grabbing aggro, responsible DDs will switch to targets that have more health rather than focusing on a single target; this also has the effect of making the group as a whole die faster if any of the DDs are DoT jobs or jobs that can still AoE effectively on small groups. RDMs in particular will rotate a lot on small groups as their enmity generation is incredibly spiky when not just spamming Scatter.

To support this, the tank should be using AoE enmity generators and attacks. For reference, given a tank and a DD in equivalent gear, and accounting for the DD damage traits, a Sword Oath Flash is equivalent to about a 900 potency attack on everything in the group. A Shield Oath Flash is equivalent to about a 2000 potency attack on everything in the group. This means that two Flashes should be enough to hold onto the entire group against about 15 Scatters or 10 Fire IIs or 3 Flares. If the encounter lasts longer than 10-15 GCDs, you'll likely need to Flash again at least once more.

[Novak_04]

It sounds like your pursuit to maximize your tank dps is actually costing you dps and potentially slowing your run down. Being in Sword Oath isn't a huge dps increase... especially in a dungeon where a majority of the damage dealt to mobs is via AoEs. By being in Shield Oath, you allow the dps to worry less about their threat and more about nuking. Furthermore, you take less damage, allowing your healer to deal damage as well. Their damage contribution is going to be greater than that of Sword Oath's contribution. With regards to Stormblood-specific dungeons, beyond Shisui, the tank begins to get absolutely slaughtered when pulling more than one group -- Doma and Castrum are strong examples of this. Your healer will spend more time spam healing you than necessary, sacrificing any potential damage they could be doing.

TL;DR: You're not doing your group any favors by staying in Sword Oath. It's a dungeon, not Omegascape Savage.