Can we remove Tank Stance?

[Ash_]

I wouldn't mind losing the stances, as long as there isn't a nerf to tank damage to compensate for a passive always on defensive boost. I think the devs are a bit too stubborn with their thinking at times, which gets in the way of certain jobs/classes being more fun than they are currently.

[Seraphor]

With a bit of a rework, DRK could have been the perfect candidate for removing tank stance.
How? Via Dark Arts.

Basically, make Grit a trait, and permanent.
Buff up their HP.
Make Dark Arts consume HP.

Then they trade ‘defence’ via HP consumption, for damage via Dark Arts potencies.

[Beckett]

Innate enmity generation does not work, due to any content where there is more than 1 tank. We all know how bad a 24-man can get when tanks are fighting each other for enmity and the boss keeps spinning around or running throughout the arena. And in Savage, tank busters and swaps could cause huge problems when hate unexpectedly shifts to the off tank because both tanks are defaultly building equal threat.

I'll tell you what we really don't need: DPS stance. While there are definitely times a tank would not want to be in tank stance, there is never a time where a tank would want to be in no stance. If they're taking off tank stance, they're going to go into DPS stance, guaranteed. If DPS stance is always the default state, then why waste a button on it? There is absolutely no reason why Sword Oath and Deliverance shouldn't be Passive Traits. (Darkside is obviously a bit of a different beast.)

[Brightamethyst]

I'll tell you what we really don't need: DPS stance. While there are definitely times a tank would not want to be in tank stance, there is never a time where a tank would want to be in no stance. If they're taking off tank stance, they're going to go into DPS stance, guaranteed. If DPS stance is always the default state, then why waste a button on it? There is absolutely no reason why Sword Oath and Deliverance shouldn't be Passive Traits. (Darkside is obviously a bit of a different beast.)

Agreed. Sword Oath/Deliverance should a trait, and turning on Shield Oath/Defiance should just disable it temporarily.

[Shougun]

Agreed. Sword Oath/Deliverance should a trait, and turning on Shield Oath/Defiance should just disable it temporarily.

Thematically I've always thought that Paladin should always be under oath, so I've wanted this for a while just for theme even (although it is also QoL).

[Liam_Harper]

I'd be fine with seeing it gone and reworks done.

Currently the dps penalty in tank stance is way too huge. You literally can't leave tank stance on in Extreme upwards. Try it on the SSS dummies, you actually can't beat them in tank stance. This leads to the meta of turning it off the second you can.

On the flipside, the emnity generated by tank stance is massive. You can turn it on in dungeons, do only your dps rotation and things just stick to you. The only time you really manage emnity is out of tank stance.

Also I don't like the fact that tanks are all about a 1-4-5 emnity combo then 1-2-3 for dps and the occasional provoke or cd at set times. Tank is one class they could stray away from the standard 1-2-3 and try a more reaction-based priority system where we're actively managing resources to mitigate damage for the fight and trying to stay alive. Bosses could hit harder then too. Make it more engaging.

[LaylaTsarra]

Been in a few parties over the last few days where tanks weren't using their tank stance, were loosing hate, and dying without the damage resistance.

Could we just remove the stance and give them the damage resistance and enmity generation innately?

Oh I sure hope they get rid of it in 5.0.

[shao32]

Tank stances should be reworked or removed but not for the bad players, but how poorly the stance scale with content, right now any proper tank will spend 99,99% of the fight in dps stance and 00,01% in tank stance for the pull, agro is not a problem if you are proper geared and know how to make a strong pull even with average gear.

The primary problem with tank stances are the 25% damage penalty (the penalty inself and the skills use in such stance make all tanks lose 25% of his maximun dps) and how clunky and punishing is use to it with DRK and PLD and the extra defense it's doesn't have any significative impac outside of mass pulling and even with that if you are good enough you can turn it off to make more dps.

[Gemina]

Tank stances should be reworked or removed but not for the bad players, but how poorly the stance scale with content, right now any proper tank will spend 99,99% of the fight in dps stance and 00,01% in tank stance for the pull, agro is not a problem if you are proper geared and know how to make a strong pull even with average gear.

The primary problem with tank stances are the 25% damage penalty (the penalty inself and the skills use in such stance make all tanks lose 25% of his maximun dps) and how clunky and punishing is use to it with DRK and PLD and the extra defense it's doesn't have any significative impac outside of mass pulling and even with that if you are good enough you can turn it off to make more dps.

*sigh* 99.99% of the time, eh? I wonder if you grabbed the fflogs of the best tanks in this game, if it would reflect that number.

*Large dungeon trash pulls
*healer(s) are down
*Fresh content
*MT just died
*Enmity reset
*Add phase
*shall I continue?

You really are including a lot in that .01% and I'm not even a tank main. And that's without mentioning that staying in DPS 99.99% of the time puts an enormous amount of pressure on your healers, and they are going to hate you when you burn up their ogcds and are forced to use hard casted cures on you, reducing their optimal play.

But let's say that 99.99% is an exaggerated figure. The primary problem with tank stance is not the reduction to damage. It's not even what I would call a problem, and having to choose between better defense and better offense is a great and very fun tanking gimmick that makes gameplay far more engaging. The primary problem is it costs you a gcd and MP to activate it, which during combat is clunky and potentially detrimental as well. The MP cost is even greater for DRKs whose overall damage is heavily tied to their MP along with a an extremely potent damage mitigatory with TBN.

Even if they take away the MP cost, which would be nice; using up a GCD to get back into tank stance will still be a problem. While going into tank stance is not technically a GCD clip, it still feels like one. I don't play WAR, but I bet a big contributor to why it 'feels' so good to play is not because of the lack of a true tank stance, but because their version of it doesn't cost them anything.

[Kazrah]

The primary problem is it costs you a gcd and MP to activate it, which during combat is clunky and potentially detrimental as well. The MP cost is even greater for DRKs whose overall damage is heavily tied to their MP along with a an extremely potent damage mitigatory with TBN.

This is partially my mindset on the matter. The other part is a "one stance" approach to each tank:

1) For Paladin, either remove Sword Oath or change it to a cleave effect buff (ST weaponskills hit nearby targets for x% damage) or some sort of buff that doesn't feel so underwhelming. Sword Oath now might look good on a parse, but to a player who isn't violating ToS for the better or worse of other players, there's no real visual appeal that makes using it worth it as a tank compared to the dps stances of the other two tanks.

2) While Warrior is more or less fine, it can be shortened even further by removing Deliverance, baking the damage increase from it into the Storm's Eye damage buff (if they don't want to bake it into ALL Warrior skills), put Fell Cleave and Decimate on the same 15 second CD, have Infuriate reset the CDs of both in addition to beast gauge increase, and Inner Release removing their CD for its duration. Furthermore, Beast gauge could just be a general thing to compensate.

3) With Dark Knight, when was the last time you tanked anything without Darkside up? Make it passive with the MP regen removal only active while in combat, reduce the penalty to damage dealt with Grit to offset it and have any weaponskills or abilities with an extra effect under Darkside to be baseline effects.

If anything, it's not the tank stances that should be removed, but rather the dps stances.