SE: Please copyright takedown FFLogs.

[Bearded]

I am new to FFXIV and had a look over at FFlogs which I had never heard of (so thanks to the original poster for letting me and others know about it). I do not see anything on the site itself which promotes the sort of toxic behavior that they have mentioned. It seems to be nothing more than a place to log damage done/healed over a certain time/event. Yes someone may be generating less damage than others but I would like to think that this community (which I have seen as tremendously supportive) would explain to others how to increase damage/healing.

The logs also only seem to cater towards "end game" content which in itself (if my experiences in WoW) are to go by are rather unforgiving so a novice has a real hard time.

I think the claims over copyright are a front probably for some other axe to grind with the site in question.

[noxen]

I think the claims over copyright are a front probably for some other axe to grind with the site in question.

OR.


He's just bad DPS and salty about it.

[KageTokage]

I am new to FFXIV and had a look over at FFlogs which I had never heard of (so thanks to the original poster for letting me and others know about it). I do not see anything on the site itself which promotes the sort of toxic behavior that they have mentioned. It seems to be nothing more than a place to log damage done/healed over a certain time/event. Yes someone may be generating less damage than others but I would like to think that this community (which I have seen as tremendously supportive) would explain to others how to increase damage/healing.

The logs also only seem to cater towards "end game" content which in itself (if my experiences in WoW) are to go by are rather unforgiving so a novice has a real hard time.

I think the claims over copyright are a front probably for some other axe to grind with the site in question.

Honestly, I have more of a problem with people getting lazy about healing/tanking in favor of pushing bigger DPS numbers for FFLogs then people being harassed for putting out low numbers.

[Seddrinth]

Honestly, I have more of a problem with people getting lazy about healing/tanking in favor of pushing bigger DPS numbers for FFLogs then people being harassed for putting out low numbers.

Yup, and I've never witness anyone being harassed for being gray because that's a ban-able offense. I've seen players use ACt/fflogs to better themselves but no one is dumb enough to risk being banned by griefing others over log numbers.

[Canadane]

Honestly, I have more of a problem with people getting lazy about healing/tanking in favor of pushing bigger DPS numbers for FFLogs then people being harassed for putting out low numbers.

Without knowing, what about the lazy dps and failed checks? What's to keep them in line?

[NocturniaUzuki]

I am new to FFXIV and had a look over at FFlogs which I had never heard of (so thanks to the original poster for letting me and others know about it). I do not see anything on the site itself which promotes the sort of toxic behavior that they have mentioned. It seems to be nothing more than a place to log damage done/healed over a certain time/event. Yes someone may be generating less damage than others but I would like to think that this community (which I have seen as tremendously supportive) would explain to others how to increase damage/healing.

The logs also only seem to cater towards "end game" content which in itself (if my experiences in WoW) are to go by are rather unforgiving so a novice has a real hard time.

I think the claims over copyright are a front probably for some other axe to grind with the site in question.

Explaining "how to increase damage/healing" is not always a positive. By telling someone how to improve, you are suggesting improvement, the implication of which is that the person in question "should" improve. And more specifically, that they "should" improve in the ways you suggest.

If that method conflicts with the player's methodology, or if the player simply doesn't want to actively improve, it may actually come across more like shaming than an innocent suggestion. After all, we all have our own ways of playing the game. And effectively being told that one's way of playing is "wrong" is a surefire agitator. I would hazard a guess that this is also the #1 reason why game forums are often toxic.

I don't know whether I'd really blame FFlogs itself for this phenomenon. It's really down to human communication flaws. But I think FFlogs does facilitate and worsen the issue.

[Shurrikhan]

Explaining "how to increase damage/healing" is not always a positive. By telling someone how to improve, you are suggesting improvement, the implication of which is that the person in question "should" improve. And more specifically, that they "should" improve in the ways you suggest.

If that method conflicts with the player's methodology, or if the player simply doesn't want to actively improve, it may actually come across more like shaming than an innocent suggestion. After all, we all have our own ways of playing the game. And effectively being told that one's way of playing is "wrong" is a surefire agitator. I would hazard a guess that this is also the #1 reason why game forums are often toxic.

I don't know whether I'd really blame FFlogs itself for this phenomenon. It's really down to human communication flaws. But I think FFlogs does facilitate and worsen the issue.

How information plainly given and which one can take or decline, especially when given only in a place by which to seek out improvement or where your underperformance is hampering others' play, is received is on the recipient alone. If they feel ashamed, it's because they believe they have something to feel ashamed about. If they rationalize it in a way that would require something from themselves and yet refuse to give it out of some emotional discrepancy with that finding... that's their own ordeal to handle. Others can provide the steps to bridge that disconnect or avoid the broken bridge entirely, but it's not our responsibility to push them one way or the other any more than to leave them unfazedly standing there in the middle of something they're clearly not ready for at our own expense.

[KaivaC]

Explaining "how to increase damage/healing" is not always a positive. By telling someone how to improve, you are suggesting improvement, the implication of which is that the person in question "should" improve. And more specifically, that they "should" improve in the ways you suggest.

If that method conflicts with the player's methodology, or if the player simply doesn't want to actively improve, it may actually come across more like shaming than an innocent suggestion. After all, we all have our own ways of playing the game. And effectively being told that one's way of playing is "wrong" is a surefire agitator. I would hazard a guess that this is also the #1 reason why game forums are often toxic.

I don't know whether I'd really blame FFlogs itself for this phenomenon. It's really down to human communication flaws. But I think FFlogs does facilitate and worsen the issue.

To this, I ask: why is the player doing raiding if they don't want to improve? Savage raiding is primarily where FFlogs is focused. If some players don't want to actively try to get better, but still presses on in Savage raiding, then 9 times out of 10, all they are doing is getting carried.

[Connor]

I don’t use fflogs myself as I’m a PS4 player (no logs to post) so I don’t know much about how it works.

I do know that data from some the parties I’ve been in has been uploaded before, but I never felt particularly bothered by it. In fact, it actually felt like I was able to get a much better idea of how well I had done in those parties (not that I was doing content where it particularly mattered since I’m not a raider lol)

I guess I can understand being unhappy if you didn’t want people to see that kind of thing but it was uploaded anyway, but surely there must be some kind of option to opt out of that, or perhaps making it private is possible?

Lastly, it’s definitely true that some people may use it purely to be mean to others, but people who do this kind of thing are going to find a way to do it, whether it’s through fflogs or otherwise.

Rather than removing a website that people that have put a lot of work into, we should look at why people playing the game reach a point where they become aggressive towards others. Naturally it’s not always a straightforward answer, but nevertheless I think looking at why people do this is more productive than looking at how.

As a final aside, I do thing a lot of people are sometimes genuinely trying to help others when they mention things like damage, but sometimes it can come across aggressively without meaning to

[Awha]

Not sure if it has been said but making them opt-in instead of out probably would ease the minds of many. I did not know FFlogs were opt-out instead of in and made things a tad rough for a couple of friends because I uploaded my logs. That is water under the bridge at this point, and I get that for many making logs opt-in would impact the data, but as a learning tool I do not think much would be impacted. Those that wish to use logs to improve would still use fflogs. Sure people will still be suspicious of those that do not have any logs, but that is the same as is.

While the data is no theirs, I do sort of understand why someone would be rather annoyed that info on their performance and be swimming around without them knowing. Making it opt-in gives players that sense of control. Sure in the grand scheme it will not change much of anything but I do think that change from opt-in instead of out would do greatly to change the perception of parsing by the generally community.

Also, lol this is properly a bait thread, but whatever.