Blue Mage damage

[Palladiamors]

So just for fun I decided to stick my black mage in the same gear my Blue Mage had on and desync him to level 50 to do some comparisons. Ilvl is 111 with black mage also having a store bought level 50 staff.

Black Mages standard fire attack hits for a flat 100% more targets in comparison to Rams Voice or which 130 potency attack you want to use, with Off-Guard on the target and black mage being in three stacks of Astral Fire. Blue Mage casts .5 seconds faster but even in the optimal situation of Off-Guard and Peculiar light, Blue mage was only hitting 75% of the damage of the black mage. Blue mage has better control of burst damage utilizing Primal Abilities but Fire Starter and Fire 3 coupled with Black Mage just plain hitting harder put Blue Mage far behind Black. Blue Mage AoE is both better and worse than black mage, with Rams Voice into Dragons Voice destroying mobs but Fire 2 dealing more damage to multiple mobs in the event that Rams Dragon wasn't available. Primal Abilities also pushed Blue Mages AoE up even further beyond the black mage.

Bristle not being usable with the Primal Abilities hurt. Explosion, 220 potency, only hit for 1000 damage with a target being under the effect of Off-Guard. Comparatively speaking Fire 3 is 240 potency, hits for upwards of 1600 with the same gear. Yes, multi-target versus single target, but even with improved Main and Mend with Off-Guard up, there should only be a 10% difference in damage, not a 50%.

A Bristled Rams Dragon peculiar light combo was able to hit consistently around 2700 damage but that is entirely dependent on the target not being immune to deep freeze and on Peculiar light being up.

Finally yes, I am aware that Blue Mages have a variety of status attacks no one else has access too. Those skills are entirely dependent on the target not being immune to those status effects and in my soloing of Arum Vale I discovered that even the first boss of that place was immune to everything but Poison and Damage down.

Two things in summation. The first is that Blue Mages can absolutely wreck normal mobs and trash mobs in dungeons but are fairly pitiful against bosses. Second is that I think it was Pheonix who said it, was right. The lack of a dedicated main weapon and the damage ((And defensive stats, my black mage had almost a thousand hit points more then my blue)) stats associated with it really seem to be holding the job back.

[QT_Melon]

I agree. Especially given that the Primal Abilities already are "punishing" with a longer GCD and shared skills with another Primal.

Bristle really should have been something like an OGCD like a "Blue Mage Berserk" Bristle in its current form is just meh. That's not to say it isn't fantastic when paired with DoTs. It just feels like an extra button that just feels clunky in design.

[Eloah]

I wanna know why we have so many AoE spells and like only one single target, like what? If most of our spells are swaps with a different element, then where are moves with ice, fire, lightning?

And our damage feels just really low

[Palladiamors]

I wanna know why we have so many AoE spells and like only one single target, like what? If most of our spells are swaps with a different element, then where are moves with ice, fire, lightning?

And our damage feels just really low

It is. And as for the single target spell, yeah, they needed something stronger than 120 potency. Even with all the buffs the class can bring to itself it never comes close to what other magic DPSers can do. A Bristled Rams voice with Off Guard and Peculiar light up hits for 1100 damage...not even the same amount of as a three Astral fire Fire 1 AND since it uses Bristle its actually a DPS loss.

BLU's AoE is its only saving grace, and even that depends on a number of factors. The most obvious is access to the right spells, primarily the primal abilities and the Rams Dragon Voice combo. Of course BLU's single target ALSO relies on the Primal abilities...basically, you need the primal abilities.

[Symon17]

It's pretty commonplace at this point for people to mention how weak BLU is, but I've yet to see it thoroughly tested by these people. Most complaints end at "the potencies are so low compared to other jobs", while completely ignoring off-guard's 50% bonus, in addition to maim and mend V's 20% over magick and mend II. You at least acknowledge those points, but it seems like you're still just comparing individual damage numbers of a random BLM skill with a random BLU skill. Is WAR a better dps than SMN because fell cleave hits harder than fester? There's more to dps than that.

There are translated quotes from Japanese players in another BLU thread saying things like "Our firepower isn't as low as some have said. With final [BiS, or at least level 50] gear and after casting Off Guard, our damage per hit seems fine for a level 50."

Before repeating how weak BLU is for a lvl 50 job, I'd like to see people actually test the damage an optimized BLU rotation can do. I really think they'd find that it's not as simple as "glower only has 130 potency".

[Palladiamors]

It's pretty commonplace at this point for people to mention how weak BLU is, but I've yet to see it thoroughly tested by these people. Most complaints end at "the potencies are so low compared to other jobs", while completely ignoring off-guard's 50% bonus, in addition to maim and mend V's 20% over magick and mend II. You at least acknowledge those points, but it seems like you're still just comparing individual damage numbers of a random BLM skill with a random BLU skill. Is WAR a better dps than SMN because fell cleave hits harder than fester? There's more to dps than that.

There are translated quotes from Japanese players in another BLU thread saying things like "Our firepower isn't as low as some have said. With final [BiS, or at least level 50] gear and after casting Off Guard, our damage per hit seems fine for a level 50."

Before repeating how weak BLU is for a lvl 50 job, I'd like to see people actually test the damage an optimized BLU rotation can do. I really think they'd find that it's not as simple as "glower only has 130 potency".

I think you missed the part where I tested stacked damage and max damage potential in comparison to Black Mage. I took into account cast times for blue mage and black mage as well as maximum burst potential. Black Mage has far more burst potential in the same time period as Blue Mage, and Black Mages filler, Fire 1, hits for more than 50% more damage than Blue Mages fillers. The 20% increased attack speed alleviates some of that, but Blacks increased damage from more bursts swings it back.

Blue Mage does have Aqua Breath and Song of Torment to help but Thunder 2 tends to swing that back so those still don't make up the gap. To compare the one for ones right now, a level 50 Black Mages Fire tops out at 378 with three stacks of Astral Fire and Maim and Mend. Rams Glower Voice tops out at 260 with the assumption of Off Guard, and 299 with Peculiar Light. This looks good on paper, but in practice it leads to blue mages doing 800 to the blacks 1200, and even thats only for the 10 seconds peculiar light is up. The 20% faster cast time does not make up for this difference. The instant casts are the same story, with Mount Busters 310 potency breaking roughly even with Fire Starter Fire 3 WITH Peculiar Light up and a bit behind without, but being able to chain cast its big three during Peculiar Lights up time helps but doesn't quite make up for the number of likely procs of Firestarter.

[Palladiamors]

THAT BEING SAID, I am comparing the king of magic DPS to Blue Mage AND under the assumption that the Black Mage is going to constantly be in Astral Fire, which isn't accurate. That being said, the downtime in Astral Ice still doesn't let Blue Mage catch up that much, with the main strike being the lack of Firestarter procs. But if Firestarter procs at least three times during a thirty second period then the Black Mage still has the advantage, even more so under the consideration that the second usage of the Primal Abilities won't be under Peculiar light.

And again, in the realm of AoE Blue Mage is absolutely king. No damage drop off on spammable and decently powerful AoE, the ability to perform a one two punch on normal mobs with a base potency of 310 WHILE RESTRAINING SAID MOBS, TWO AoE DoTs with one still being a 90 potency attack as well, THREE instant cast high damage AoE attacks with one not suffering from damage falloff, THE ABILITY TO BEEF UP ANY OF THESE EXCEPT THE PRIMALS BY 50%, an AoE paralyze power down poison etc...

And in all due fairness again, Black Mage. If I had compared Blue Mage to Red Mage the end result would be different. Not to mention that Blue Mage has a good deal of support going for it as well. In group content Blue Mage is going to have a lot to offer. Its damage is just a bit lower then it probably needs to be at current.

[Kabooa]

Before repeating how weak BLU is for a lvl 50 job, I'd like to see people actually test the damage an optimized BLU rotation can do. I really think they'd find that it's not as simple as "glower only has 130 potency".

It isn't so much that it's bad, but that it's boring. Blue's extended DPS cycle boils down to glower or whatever 130 you want to use after a Machinist similar burst period opener.

Because anything worth DPSing is immune to status effects, you literally have no spell combos to use, and after your OGCD burn phase you're just hitting glower until it comes back up.

It's not easy to test since you can't force sync yourself down, and while mimicing your stats at 50 while on 70 is comparable (As base level beyond 50 rarely increases flat damage), that still screws with your stat scaling and you don't get a clearer picture.

It is not only annoying to do these tests, but they're also ultimately fruitless. What's the point? Why put the work in?

Because I'm bored.

Tried a moon flute opener vs non. (Moon flute is only worth using during Opener-esque segments - All three primal spells and a bristled Torment)

using a percent scale, the following is what I have recorded.

Moon flute Opener -> Light "Wildfires": 100%
No Flute OPener -> Light Wildifers: 92%
Moon Flute Opener -> Moonflute + Light "Wildfires": 92%

70 Black Mage mimicking level 50 stats - Dreadwyrm Staff
Compared to 100% Opener

50 Rotation: 80%
70 rotation: 116%

[Symon17]

Its damage is just a bit lower then it probably needs to be at current.

How much DPS does a BLU do in a 2-3 min period? How much DPS does a level 50 BLM do in a 2-3 min period?

It is not only annoying to do these tests, but they're also ultimately fruitless. What's the point? Why put the work in?

I'd argue if it's not interesting enough to fully experiment, why discuss it at all?

I am interested, though. How long did your tests last? If I understand your numbers, BLMs lvl 50 opener did 80% of the damage of a Moonfluted BLU opener, while the lvl 70 opener did 116%?

Ultimately, I want to make sure my overall point isn't lost here. I'm not being difficult for fun. I'm commenting because I've looked at numbers some other players have come up with, and I've confirmed them with testing myself. This includes entering lvl 50 dungeons while level sync'd. "BLU is very weak" is considered common knowledge at this point, but I'm not seeing that in actual practice. I'm seeing a class that does completely average damage for a lvl 50 caster. When I see people saying it's so very weak, I want to verify their numbers, and possibly revise my own testing if necessary.

[Kalise]

Really, one of the things that needs pinning down is just how much exactly does INT and secondary stats impact things.

Since, while BLU gets bonus magical power from INT, a BLM has not only the stats on their weapon (Both INT and some secondary stats) but also has Enhanced Intellect traits for bonus INT.

Then of course, there's Maim and Might vs Magick and Might 50% vs 30% with also Off-Guard vs Astral Fire 50% vs 80%

Essentially, potency wise, BLM has Fire which is 180 and then it's amp'd by 110% by M&M and AF up to 378 potency. They also have procs of Fire III which is 240 and then amp'd up to 504 potency. Meaning that on average they push out 428 potency with their Astral Fire CD's (Assuming perfect 40% of Fire I replaced with Fire III)

BLU has Glower (Or another of like a million other spells) with 130 potency. Amp'd by M&M up to 195 and amp'd by OG up to 293 potency.

If you then account for their oGCD primal skills, they get 220 from Eruption (495 after amplification) for ~41 potency per GCD, Static Strike for 310 potency (~678 after amplification) for ~29 potency per GCD and Glass Dance for 290 potency (~653 after amplification) for ~18 potency per GCD.

Putting BLU's average potency per GCD to 381. With Peculiar Light averaging about 26 potency per GCD bringing that up to 407 potency per GCD.

A mere 21 potency per GCD away from BLM. Which may or may not be matched by Torment vs Thunder it's harder to average them out because of Thundercloud procs being weird and dealing full damage of the DoT in addition to its refresh... Potentially doubling the output of the GCD spent refreshing it.

At the very least, the time that BLM has to spend in Astral Ice would put the 2 closer to each other in terms of potency output.

So again, it really hinges on just how effective BLU's INT scaling is at matching the weapon damage, INT and secondary stats that BLM has from their weapon and Enhanced Intelligence traits.